How long to wait until culling Apistogramma cacatuoides

[Phirefase]

Hello, I have some apistogramma cacatuoides that I have that I plan on picking my next breeders from. Currently they are 6 months of age and the females are starting to stake out turf. I am wondering if anyone has any rules of thumb for when to start culling fish, as there are a few with very little patterning on them. Thanks

[Fish Folk]

On 2/28/2022 at 11:22 PM, Phirefase said:

Hello, I have some apistogramma cacatuoides that I have that I plan on picking my next breeders from. Currently they are 6 months of age and the females are starting to stake out turf. I am wondering if anyone has any rules of thumb for when to start culling fish, as there are a few with very little patterning on them. Thanks

I’d see if @tolstoy21 has any input, since he’s been breeding A. Cacatuoides awhile.

In my view, you can either cull _out_ fish that are substandard; or you can pull exceptionally good looking fish as potential breeders. That May all depend on how many tanks you have available.

 

[tolstoy21]

@PhirefaseI find that coloration and patterning in the body can be variable in A Cacs.  depending on mood, stress, where they are in the pecking order (meaning a dominant male or submissive male), if they are in breeding mode, etc. 

However, at this point you should be able to confidently select a few nicely colored dominant males from a grow out easily, but others may color up in response to their removal and assume a dominant role.

However, by 6 months, fin pattern and fin coloration should be pretty set, so if you were going to cull based on that, you should be fine at this point.

If you have a lot of fish in a grow out still, you'll notice that when you separate some out and put them in their own tanks, they will take on size faster, and this is where you get a second-opinion  perspective on what they look like from a body patterning perspective.

I've seen pretty drab females with dark bellies turn a splendid yellow, orange and black, with very nicely defined patterns and lines when separated out from the rest of the fish and conditioned for breeding.

These days, I tend to cull more based on body shape than patterning, unless I have fish with a n obvious poor stripe, etc. As for fins, if I have some fish that don't display the full coloration I want in their pectorals, I'll trade these into the LFS for credit. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by tolstoy21

[Phirefase]

On 3/1/2022 at 10:47 AM, tolstoy21 said:

@PhirefaseI find that coloration and patterning in the body can be variable in A Cacs.  depending on mood, stress, where they are in the pecking order (meaning a dominant male or submissive male), if they are in breeding mode, etc. 

However, at this point you should be able to confidently select a few nicely colored dominant males from a grow out easily, but others may color up in response to their removal and assume a dominant role.

However, by 6 months, fin pattern and fin coloration should be pretty set, so if you were going to cull based on that, you should be fine at this point.

If you have a lot of fish in a grow out still, you'll notice that when you separate some out and put them in their own tanks, they will take on size faster, and this is where you get a second-opinion  perspective on what they look like from a body patterning perspective.

I've seen pretty drab females with dark bellies turn a splendid yellow, orange and black, with very nicely defined patterns and lines when separated out from the rest of the fish and conditioned for breeding.

These days, I tend to cull more based on body shape than patterning, unless I have fish with a n obvious poor stripe, etc. As for fins, if I have some fish that don't display the full coloration I want in their pectorals, I'll trade these into the LFS for credit. 

Thanks for the thorough response. I should have clarified, the patterning on the dorsal fin is what I as looking at culling for. I have also noticed the variable growth rates in the fish. Since you seem to know what you’re doing, is there a certain density of A. caca that will cause aggression to be spread out similar to overstocking African cichlid tanks? I ask because I have another spawn of 130 three month old fry that are in a twenty long and want to know when I start selling them off, at what point should I start watching more carefully. 
Also what is your preferred ratio of males to females when trying to pair them off?

Edited March 1, 2022 by Phirefase
Additional question added

[tolstoy21]

 I just pair them off in pairs. I'll have one-to-three pairs in their own breeding setup at any given time.

With 130 fish in a 20 long, you will see variable growth rates. This is to be expected. If you separate out the smaller fish to different tank, they will be able to put some size on without the competition of the larger, more dominant fish. You might also think about splitting the batch up so it doesn't get overcrowded as the fry grow, and so in case something were to happen (illness, heater breaking, water params going out of whack), you don't lose them all in one shot.

As for aggression, I tend to not see it until there are far fewer fish, and the tank is set up in a way that they can start creating territories and/or start trying to spawn.  I've had as few as 20 males in a 29G with little in the way of decoration (just one piece of drift wood), and they barely sparred.  Sure they might nip each other but they wont get as brutal as they would if it were two males competing for breeding territory.  In comparison, I have a well-planted 125 gallon tank with a single male. If I introduce a second, he hunts it down and kills it.

I start offering my apistos for sale around the three-month point. I'll sell off the larger, more dominant fish first.

Hope this helps.

Edited March 2, 2022 by tolstoy21