SkaleyAquatics - High tech practice tank

[SkaleyAquatics]

I follow 2hr aquarist on Instagram, does he have a personal account also? And did not know Christel Kasselman was on Instagram, I am thinking about getting her updated book from her website. 

[gjcarew]

He just has the 2 hr aquarist account that I know of. I would love Kasselmann's book too but it's like $90 plus shipping. She just has info you can't get anywhere else. I was trying to propagate Isoetes japonica last year and the only practical info (academic sources included) I could find on  it was from Aquarienpflanzen.

[SkaleyAquatics]

On 3/8/2022 at 3:12 AM, gjcarew said:

He just has the 2 hr aquarist account that I know of. I would love Kasselmann's book too but it's like $90 plus shipping. She just has info you can't get anywhere else. I was trying to propagate Isoetes japonica last year and the only practical info (academic sources included) I could find on  it was from Aquarienpflanzen.

I will say it is quite expensive but sometimes books are invaluable and this is one of those books.

For my birthday, I ordered a book called labyrinth fish world because I was struggling to find information on wild type bettas. 

[SkaleyAquatics]

So managed to tackle the algae problem and it has not came back yet.

Changed some things up since the last update. Removed the H'ra and ripped out the ludwigia. 

I added 4 new plants, Hydrophila Siamensis 53B, Bacopa Myrophylloides, Hydrocotyle Sibthorpioides, and Pogostemon Helferi Downoi. I am particularly excited about the Pogostemon, I love the leaf shape on this plant.

I am also trying to dial my co2 back in since I switched filters. I nearly gassed the fish out the first day when I switched it and I think I was a little heavy handed when turning it down.

I increased the light from 40% to 55% for 4 hours and 80% for 2 hours. 

Now to be patient and see how the plants fill in. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by SkaleyAquatics

[SkaleyAquatics]

Well went to look at the tank and instantly noticed quite a bit of monte carlo has turned white/yellow, and saw some new algae growth on it. And I'm honestly at a loss on this one. 

 

Current water parameters:

NH3: 0

NO2: 0

NO3: 5

PH: 6.5

DGH: 7

DKH: 4

PH when co2 off is 7.4

Dosing schedule and light schedule:

APT Complete 5x/week at 2ml

4 hours at 60% and 2 hours at 80% 

 

It also feels like growth has severely slowed or even stopped. 

Any advice in how to move forward?

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by SkaleyAquatics

[gjcarew]

After raising lighting levels and dialing in CO2 everything usually needs a while to settle in. It's too soon to start worrying about anything. If it isn't looking better in a few days here are my ideas:

Looks like your monte carlo is pretty dense, if you give it a good trim to the substrate it can stimulate new growth.

I don't know why you're adding K2CO3, but that is a lot of K. Between the K2CO3 and the APT Complete you're adding about 30 ppm K per week while the rest of your ferts are very lean. Per Mulder's chart, this could be causing issues with uptake of other nutrients, particularly nitrogen which is already very lean in APT Complete. Plant nutrition is all about ratios, and by adding extra K you're throwing off the ratios built in to APT complete. In the same vein, with such lean dosing I would try decreasing GH as well. You could try out remineralizing your RO water to 15/5 ppm Ca/Mg, respectively. Ca is a potent nutrient uptake antagonist. To quote classic fishkeeping advice, "you need to balance your tank."

 

A side effect of cutting back/ eliminating K2CO3 dosing would be to drop your KH, which soft water plants should love. It looks like fundulopanchax gardneri should not have an issue with soft water.

I think of APT complete as being something more for traditional Amano-style aquascaping, where a decent amount of space is taken up by hardscape. Since you have an all-plant layout and very low fish load, you should probably be dosing a little more than recommended and see if that helps. Maybe try 3 mL per dose rather than 2, and see how your plants respond.  
 

 

[SkaleyAquatics]

@gjcarew I'll start by trimming the monte carlo back this weekend with the water change. 

I had been considering dropping the kh originally but was worried about having too little K. I didn't add up the total from my dosing of APT to see were I was at. If the plan is to lower/eliminate kh will I need to do this over time or should I just stop reminerializing with K2CO3?

[gjcarew]

On 3/22/2022 at 5:36 PM, SkaleyAquatics said:

@gjcarew I'll start by trimming the monte carlo back this weekend with the water change. 

I had been considering dropping the kh originally but was worried about having too little K. I didn't add up the total from my dosing of APT to see were I was at. If the plan is to lower/eliminate kh will I need to do this over time or should I just stop reminerializing with K2CO3?

For some perspective, you are currently dosing classic EI levels of K, while APT complete is about 1/3 EI (this is an oversimplification, but roughly accurate.) I wouldn't worry about a potassium deficiency until you start to see concrete signs of it. 

Fluctuating KH can be hard on fish. It might be better to halve the amount of K2CO3 you're adding this week, then eliminate it the following week. That should allow for a pretty gradual decrease of KH in the tank.

[SkaleyAquatics]

Thanks! @gjcarew

That does put into perspective the amount of K being dosed currently. It briefly crossed my mind that I could be dosing too much of something but was unsure. I plan to start making some of these changes with the water change and the rest with the following one. 

In regards to lowering the gh would you apply the same method as the kh or just reduce it on the next water change?

[SkaleyAquatics]

On 3/22/2022 at 8:53 PM, gjcarew said:

For some perspective, you are currently dosing classic EI levels of K, while APT complete is about 1/3 EI (this is an oversimplification, but roughly accurate.) I wouldn't worry about a potassium deficiency until you start to see concrete signs of it. 

Fluctuating KH can be hard on fish. It might be better to halve the amount of K2CO3 you're adding this week, then eliminate it the following week. That should allow for a pretty gradual decrease of KH in the tank.

I just realized how much K I was actually dosing at 42ppm. Went back and looked at my initial post, and it didn't dawn on me at the time because I was dosing to 3dkh. 

 

I went back and added what I believe I am dosing with APT and that is 19ppm per week, so 61ppm of K a week, compared that just to the 9ppm of NO3. That ratio seems way off. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by SkaleyAquatics
added second paragraph

[Mmiller2001]

On 3/22/2022 at 6:36 PM, SkaleyAquatics said:

@gjcarew I'll start by trimming the monte carlo back this weekend with the water change. 

I had been considering dropping the kh originally but was worried about having too little K. I didn't add up the total from my dosing of APT to see were I was at. If the plan is to lower/eliminate kh will I need to do this over time or should I just stop reminerializing with K2CO3?

I had K problems too when using K2CO3, I didn't even dose K2SO4 while using it. 

Best thing I ever did was move my tanks to 0dKH. Everything just got "better". I'm still waiting for the mysterious "pH crash" everyone likes mentioning 😁. It's 100% false, definitely a wives tale. And boy, do plants love that low pH!

I'm having trouble getting my tank below 5.0pH though. I might go back to an on-line reactor!

[SkaleyAquatics]

On 3/23/2022 at 1:06 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

I had K problems too when using K2CO3, I didn't even dose K2SO4 while using it. 

Best thing I ever did was move my tanks to 0dKH. Everything just got "better". I'm still waiting for the mysterious "pH crash" everyone likes mentioning 😁. It's 100% false, definitely a wives tale. And boy, do plants love that low pH!

I'm having trouble getting my tank below 5.0pH though. I might go back to an on-line reactor!

Well good to know I am not the only one. I feel that its been debunked at this point I've seen too many people with 0 dkh that haven't had a pH crash. 

Unfortunately, I already rematerialized my RO water to the previous parameters and would have to change 8 gallons if I wanted to half the dosing of K2CO3. 

My goal is to switch to clear tubing and lily pipes and add a inline diffuser, but that has not happened yet. I really need to order the pH monitor for the raspberry pi still too. 

[SkaleyAquatics]

So its been 2 weeks since my last update. And things have changed. I decided to rip out the monte carlo, just was not doing it for me. 

I have since reduced to 15 ca and 5 mg per water change and have cut the k out of the reminerialized water. Yesterday I noticed new growth looks twisted and stunted. So wondering if that is to do with the lower ca dosing or something else, Any ideas on this? I Only seem to notice it in the rotala and the ar mini, possibly the bacopa salzmanii as well. I did up my APT complete dose to 3ml 5x a week. 

 

The other thing that has been on my mind is to stop messing around and go down the EI method... I know @Mmiller2001 would like to see it. 

As a follow up look for a new journal, that didn't get all the pictures snapped I wanted to this past weekend on setup.

[SkaleyAquatics]

On 4/7/2022 at 7:59 PM, SkaleyAquatics said:

So its been 2 weeks since my last update. And things have changed. I decided to rip out the monte carlo, just was not doing it for me. 

I have since reduced to 15 ca and 5 mg per water change and have cut the k out of the reminerialized water. Yesterday I noticed new growth looks twisted and stunted. So wondering if that is to do with the lower ca dosing or something else, Any ideas on this? I Only seem to notice it in the rotala and the ar mini, possibly the bacopa salzmanii as well. I did up my APT complete dose to 3ml 5x a week. 

 

The other thing that has been on my mind is to stop messing around and go down the EI method... I know @Mmiller2001 would like to see it. 

As a follow up look for a new journal, that didn't get all the pictures snapped I wanted to this past weekend on setup.

@Seattle_Aquarist Hey Roy, looking for some advice on this one in regards to the new growth looking stunted. I originally thought it was a Ca deficiency but want to confirm this. Do you think this is a Ca deficiency or a Co2 issue? or something else completely?

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @SkaleyAquatics

"15 ca and 5 mg per water change"

Could you please provide current tank water parameters?
pH, dKH, dGH, and nitrates ppm

How do you determine how much (ppms) of CO2 is in your tank?  Drop checker or pH drop from no gas present to fully saturated?
 -Roy

[SkaleyAquatics]

On 4/10/2022 at 12:40 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @SkaleyAquatics

"15 ca and 5 mg per water change"

Could you please provide current tank water parameters?
pH, dKH, dGH, and nitrates ppm

How do you determine how much (ppms) of CO2 is in your tank?  Drop checker or pH drop from no gas present to fully saturated?
 -Roy

@Seattle_Aquarist 

I normally do no gas present to fully saturated on the pH. It was 5.8 today fully saturated and am currently degassing some to see what it is fully degassed. dGH is 6 and dKH is 2. Working on bringing this as low as I can but its been a slow process. Nitrate are at 5 ppm after doing a 50% water change this morning. (I am trying to keep it lean to incourage the rotala to get red)

-Sean

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 4/10/2022 at 4:39 PM, SkaleyAquatics said:

@Seattle_Aquarist 

I normally do no gas present to fully saturated on the pH. It was 5.8 today fully saturated and am currently degassing some to see what it is fully degassed. dGH is 6 and dKH is 2. Working on bringing this as low as I can but its been a slow process. Nitrate are at 5 ppm after doing a 50% water change this morning. (I am trying to keep it lean to incourage the rotala to get red)

-Sean

Hi Sean,

Typically it takes about 24 hours for a tank to degas fully depending upon circulation and surface agitation.  Let me know what you end up with!

[SkaleyAquatics]

On 4/10/2022 at 9:11 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi Sean,

Typically it takes about 24 hours for a tank to degas fully depending upon circulation and surface agitation.  Let me know what you end up with!

I will let you know!

[SkaleyAquatics]

On 4/10/2022 at 9:11 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi Sean,

Typically it takes about 24 hours for a tank to degas fully depending upon circulation and surface agitation.  Let me know what you end up with!

Roy, 

Checked the degassed pH and it was 7.4

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi Sean ( @SkaleyAquatics)

I don't believe you have a lack of CO2.  With a pH drop of 1.6 I would suspect the tank is well above 30 ppm and may be close to causing some fish distress so watch for fish hanging near the surface or rapid gill movements.

As for the stunting of the new growth the more common causes are insufficient available phosphorus or zinc.  APT 3 does not state the amount of zinc in solution, likely because it is a micro-nutrient.  When we cut back on our dosing of any All-in-one fertilizer (like APT) not only does the nitrogen level drop but so did all the other nutrient levels.

I believe the dosing of Ca and Mg was dropped about the same time?  Neither would typically cause the issues we see in the new growth and if it was one or the other I would suspect calcium first.

If it were me I would do a little investigation.  Keep everything the same including the current Ca and Mg levels and increase the dosing of APT back to previous levels when their were not issues.  If the new growth returns to normal the issues are related to the reduced dosing of APT.

If with the return to previous levels of APT dosing does not resolve the issued try increasing the calcium dosing to previous levels and see if that resolves the twisting and stunting issues.

Let us know how things progress Sean, -Roy



 

[SkaleyAquatics]

On 4/12/2022 at 12:36 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi Sean ( @SkaleyAquatics)

I don't believe you have a lack of CO2.  With a pH drop of 1.6 I would suspect the tank is well above 30 ppm and may be close to causing some fish distress so watch for fish hanging near the surface or rapid gill movements.

As for the stunting of the new growth the more common causes are insufficient available phosphorus or zinc.  APT 3 does not state the amount of zinc in solution, likely because it is a micro-nutrient.  When we cut back on our dosing of any All-in-one fertilizer (like APT) not only does the nitrogen level drop but so did all the other nutrient levels.

I believe the dosing of Ca and Mg was dropped about the same time?  Neither would typically cause the issues we see in the new growth and if it was one or the other I would suspect calcium first.

If it were me I would do a little investigation.  Keep everything the same including the current Ca and Mg levels and increase the dosing of APT back to previous levels when their were not issues.  If the new growth returns to normal the issues are related to the reduced dosing of APT.

If with the return to previous levels of APT dosing does not resolve the issued try increasing the calcium dosing to previous levels and see if that resolves the twisting and stunting issues.

Let us know how things progress Sean, -Roy



 

Thanks Roy,

I will investigate those suggestions and fill in everyone when I come to a conclusion.

I feel like I keep getting closer and closer to dosing individual salts, instead of all in ones. 

[SkaleyAquatics]

@Mmiller2001 I am giving in and am going to start EI dosing. But here comes the problem, I am completely lost on where to get the baseline for dosing and what to order. Any advice on this?

[Mmiller2001]

On 4/12/2022 at 12:56 PM, SkaleyAquatics said:

@Mmiller2001 I am giving in and am going to start EI dosing. But here comes the problem, I am completely lost on where to get the baseline for dosing and what to order. Any advice on this?

I like Green Leaf Aquiums

 https://greenleafaquariums.com/categories/shop/aquarium-fertilizer/fertilizer-packages.html

I would get it in jars (easier to scoop) and I would buy the EDTA+DPTA micro mix if your pH is above 6.8. if it's below, the EI kit is all you need.

This table is from nilocg, these aren't the best numbers, but is a starting point. It's important to get as close to true gallons as possible.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[SkaleyAquatics]

On 4/12/2022 at 3:21 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

I like Green Leaf Aquiums

 https://greenleafaquariums.com/categories/shop/aquarium-fertilizer/fertilizer-packages.html

I would get it in jars (easier to scoop) and I would buy the EDTA+DPTA micro mix if your pH is above 6.8. if it's below, the EI kit is all you need.

This table is from nilocg, these aren't the best numbers, but is a starting point. It's important to get as close to true gallons as possible.

Thanks! Just to clarify I would does EDTA + DPTA micro mix to what the CSM + B would be?

[Mmiller2001]

On 4/12/2022 at 1:51 PM, SkaleyAquatics said:

Thanks! Just to clarify I would does EDTA + DPTA micro mix to what the CSM + B would be?

It's a combo. So it has both chelates in it. You just calculate using Plant-Prod.