SkaleyAquatics Posted April 12, 2022 Author Share Posted April 12, 2022 (edited) On 4/12/2022 at 4:18 PM, Mmiller2001 said: It's a combo. So it has both chelates in it. You just calculate using Plant-Prod. Okay, I'll calculate the numbers sometime this week and confirm I am doing it right. Edited April 12, 2022 by SkaleyAquatics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mmiller2001 Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 I miss understood. If you had that particular mix, EDTA+DPTA, use plant prod. If you have CSMB and separate DPTA, then calculate normally for CSMB then measure out DPTA separately. I have CSMB I measure to .4ppm Fe proxy, then I add .1ppm Fe DPTA 11%. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seattle_Aquarist Posted April 14, 2022 Share Posted April 14, 2022 Hi @Mmiller2001 I think this needs to be clarified. The CSM+B still needs to be dosed for the boron, manganese, and zinc and then dose the DTPA iron to handle pH levels above 6.2.......is that correct? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mmiller2001 Posted April 14, 2022 Share Posted April 14, 2022 On 4/14/2022 at 1:01 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said: Hi @Mmiller2001 I think this needs to be clarified. The CSM+B still needs to be dosed for the boron, manganese, and zinc and then dose the DTPA iron to handle pH levels above 6.2.......is that correct? Yes, correct. When I was dosing .6ppm Fe (CSMB) as proxy, the other micros were too high. So by lowering to .4 Fe as proxy, I was able to maintain the .6 (addition of the DPTA 11%) Fe with lower Boron and so on. Sorry for not being clearer. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seattle_Aquarist Posted April 14, 2022 Share Posted April 14, 2022 (edited) On 4/14/2022 at 12:35 PM, Mmiller2001 said: Yes, correct. When I was dosing .6ppm Fe (CSMB) as proxy, the other micros were too high. So by lowering to .4 Fe as proxy, I was able to maintain the .6 (addition of the DPTA 11%) Fe with lower Boron and so on. Sorry for not being clearer. Hi @Mmiller2001 I think it is a common misconception that iron levels need to be "low". For example I have dosed 8.2 ppm of Fe for several years with no ill effects. This is what Tom Barr had to say on the subject of iron. Edited April 14, 2022 by Seattle_Aquarist 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mmiller2001 Posted April 14, 2022 Share Posted April 14, 2022 Wasn't EI Fe dosing revised? I thought I read it had been, but don't quote me! I will admit, I'm a Gregg Zydeck fan boy. And I've bought into "just because you can, should you?" mentality. Some time ago, I was having some problems and he made me aware of this CSMB pitfall. How to dose lower traces while having a higher Fe ppm. That's when I was advised to lower CSMB and use the DPTA Fe to increase overall Fe dosing. Does more iron have a positive impact? I honestly don't know, maybe I should experiment going that high. But I always fall back on Gregg's tank and look at his dosing. Would higher Fe make a substantial improvement over just dosing lower? Here's his tank and numbers. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torrey Posted April 15, 2022 Share Posted April 15, 2022 On 3/7/2022 at 5:02 PM, SkaleyAquatics said: Dang! you really are the plant guy. It was sold as "blood red sg" so we will see. Was not easy nor hard to find really. You are assuming I can even grow them? You are alot more confident in my ability then I am. Let's say that does happen then I think I can make that happen, I need to get more diligent about getting cuttings out there, such a waste to dispose of them in my opinion. I have been shipping plants all over the place, for that reason. Of course, not all my plants are worthy of shipping (generally due to algae), and then Karma the turtle is very, very happy with me.😁 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkaleyAquatics Posted April 15, 2022 Author Share Posted April 15, 2022 On 4/14/2022 at 8:02 PM, Torrey said: I have been shipping plants all over the place, for that reason. Of course, not all my plants are worthy of shipping (generally due to algae), and then Karma the turtle is very, very happy with me.😁 Nothing wrong with a "free" meal for the turtle. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torrey Posted April 15, 2022 Share Posted April 15, 2022 I just finished reading all the way through your journal! This is such a wonderful compilation of information in here, thanks to your questions, and Mmiller, Roy, and GJ Carew answers. I am enjoying following your success and plant selections. Wish I was a neighbor, totally would have taken the h'ra and r.a. off your hands. After decades of not ever getting red plants to grow, I am finally having success over the past year, and always looking for more options. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seattle_Aquarist Posted April 15, 2022 Share Posted April 15, 2022 On 4/14/2022 at 3:10 PM, Mmiller2001 said: Wasn't EI Fe dosing revised? I thought I read it had been, but don't quote me! I will admit, I'm a Gregg Zydeck fan boy. And I've bought into "just because you can, should you?" mentality. Some time ago, I was having some problems and he made me aware of this CSMB pitfall. How to dose lower traces while having a higher Fe ppm. That's when I was advised to lower CSMB and use the DPTA Fe to increase overall Fe dosing. Does more iron have a positive impact? I honestly don't know, maybe I should experiment going that high. But I always fall back on Gregg's tank and look at his dosing. Would higher Fe make a substantial improvement over just dosing lower? Hi @Mmiller2001, I too like Gregg Z, not only for his planted tanks but also for his rainbowfish as I too am a 'bow fan. 'Bows look great in planted tanks and I think planted tanks allow 'bows to show off their best colors. -Roy 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mmiller2001 Posted April 15, 2022 Share Posted April 15, 2022 To tell the truth Roy, recently I've noticed dosing much leaner has improved my tanks. I'm not sure why, but for some reason the plants just look better. Can't explain it. I need to try going really high on iron just to see. One day! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkaleyAquatics Posted April 15, 2022 Author Share Posted April 15, 2022 On 4/14/2022 at 11:09 PM, Torrey said: I just finished reading all the way through your journal! This is such a wonderful compilation of information in here, thanks to your questions, and Mmiller, Roy, and GJ Carew answers. I am enjoying following your success and plant selections. Wish I was a neighbor, totally would have taken the h'ra and r.a. off your hands. After decades of not ever getting red plants to grow, I am finally having success over the past year, and always looking for more options. Thank you for the kind words. I actually still have some h'ra I threw it in my 6g cube and it's doing alright. Not super red but it's growing hahaha. I have some more things coming down the pipeline. As the bacopa Myrophylloides is not winning me over and I unfortunately think the cyrpt needs to find a new home in my low tech 40g breeder. I'm looking for a particular color that not too many species of plants throw. So be on the lookout for that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkaleyAquatics Posted April 19, 2022 Author Share Posted April 19, 2022 @Mmiller2001 On rotalabutterfly there are 2 different plant-prod, Should i use micro mix or chelated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkaleyAquatics Posted April 19, 2022 Author Share Posted April 19, 2022 On 4/19/2022 at 10:30 AM, SkaleyAquatics said: @Mmiller2001 On rotalabutterfly there are 2 different plant-prod, Should i use micro mix or chelated? Nevermind its chelated. Seen it once I tried both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mmiller2001 Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 (edited) On 4/19/2022 at 8:30 AM, SkaleyAquatics said: @Mmiller2001 On rotalabutterfly there are 2 different plant-prod, Should i use micro mix or chelated? If you have the EDTA+DPTA micro mix, use Micro Mix. But I think they are the same. Edited April 19, 2022 by Mmiller2001 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkaleyAquatics Posted April 19, 2022 Author Share Posted April 19, 2022 On 4/19/2022 at 11:30 AM, Mmiller2001 said: If you have the EDTA+DPTA micro mix, use Micro Mix. But I think they are the same. I thought they were also the same but chelated has both Fe as EDTA + DPTA in the breakdown of elements while Micro Mix only has Fe as EDTA 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mmiller2001 Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 On 4/19/2022 at 9:39 AM, SkaleyAquatics said: I thought they were also the same but chelated has both Fe as EDTA + DPTA in the breakdown of elements while Micro Mix only has Fe as EDTA Ah okay. Good to know. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjcarew Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 If I'm having "problems" I'll switch to EI (or close to it). It's an easy way to eliminate nutrient issues as a source of the problems. But plants seem to look better and grow at a more manageable pace with leaner dosing so overall that's my preference. With regards to iron dosing I was under the impression that "overdosing" is not necessarily harmful, the iron is just likely to precipitate out of solution as iron phosphate/sulfate so it's kind of a waste. The precipitated iron can be reduced by anaerobic bacteria in the substrate if the soil is deep enough, once again making it available to plants as Fe (II). Take all this with a grain of salt though, I'm no chemist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkaleyAquatics Posted April 22, 2022 Author Share Posted April 22, 2022 On 4/21/2022 at 4:22 PM, gjcarew said: If I'm having "problems" I'll switch to EI (or close to it). It's an easy way to eliminate nutrient issues as a source of the problems. But plants seem to look better and grow at a more manageable pace with leaner dosing so overall that's my preference. With regards to iron dosing I was under the impression that "overdosing" is not necessarily harmful, the iron is just likely to precipitate out of solution as iron phosphate/sulfate so it's kind of a waste. The precipitated iron can be reduced by anaerobic bacteria in the substrate if the soil is deep enough, once again making it available to plants as Fe (II). Take all this with a grain of salt though, I'm no chemist. I've read this somewhere this week about the Iron, both that it isn't harmful to overdose and it supposedly can breakdown to the more useful Fe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkaleyAquatics Posted April 25, 2022 Author Share Posted April 25, 2022 (edited) So a few changes happened "officially" this week with the water change. I removed the Bacopa Myrophylloides and Cyrpt Undulatus 'Red' and added Rotala Wallichii, (in order from L-R) Buce Hellfire, Buce Hades, Buce Brownie Boyan (buce all grown emersed waiting for them to convert). In addition to this I have started dosing individual nutrients N,P,K, and Micromix DTPA + EDTA. I actually started these mid last week but I was not dosing the micromix by accident and was dosing I believe to be KH2PO4 instead, I realized this yesterday when measuring them for the next 2 weeks. As the Micromix is not a white substance. I decided to start my target weekly ppm's to be 22,4,24 N,P,K. I currently am dosing each of these 3x a week, every other day and alternating days between macros and micros. Though I may dose the Macro's upfront in the future. I am using Gregg Zydeck ferts file to track for a reference to my future self as proof to help prevent the same mistakes. At some point along with the above changes, I have increased lighting to ~80% You can see the current light intensities in the above image. The rotala blood red, bacopa salzmanii sg, and rotala wallichii, are all "brown/green" instead of a deep red. I have been trying to find the cause for this but struggling to find the cause thought it was light intensity being too low but not sure now. The wallichii was a beautiful pink when it was added a week ago. The rotala blood red's new growth is really bright green on the good stems I have. I am borrowing a par meter to check my par throughout the tank and will be curious to see those results. Overall, this tank has been quite the journey and have fallen in love with the AR mini, it has colored up nicely. Another positive for me is the Hygrophila Siamensis 53B, it is such a vibrant shade of green. Edited April 25, 2022 by SkaleyAquatics 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torrey Posted May 7, 2022 Share Posted May 7, 2022 Looking gorgeous! I am not sure why the reds change. There doesn't actually seem to be adequate research (that I have found) to clearly identify what triggers the red chromatographs (wrong word, but my brain is struggling for the red equivalent of chlorophyll in plants) to outcompete the chlorophyll production. In some plants it is clearly increase in sugars due to light intensity. In others, lower light gives better pinks and more light gives more chlorophyll. Still others are iron dependent, or nitrate dependent. And others seem to be a magical combination..... Your tank is delightful to look at, even though it's still not what you envisioned. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkaleyAquatics Posted May 17, 2022 Author Share Posted May 17, 2022 On 5/7/2022 at 3:29 PM, Torrey said: Looking gorgeous! I am not sure why the reds change. There doesn't actually seem to be adequate research (that I have found) to clearly identify what triggers the red chromatographs (wrong word, but my brain is struggling for the red equivalent of chlorophyll in plants) to outcompete the chlorophyll production. In some plants it is clearly increase in sugars due to light intensity. In others, lower light gives better pinks and more light gives more chlorophyll. Still others are iron dependent, or nitrate dependent. And others seem to be a magical combination..... Your tank is delightful to look at, even though it's still not what you envisioned. I appreciate that someone else gets joy out of the tank even if it is not what I had envisioned. So was doing my daily check of the aquarium and noticed a huge brown diatom outbreak that was not present yesterday before a water change. And I think I know the cause. I recently changed where I sourced my RO water from and have not actually tested it but I believe that is the cause for this sudden outbreak. The other thought was a possible phosphate buildup. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkaleyAquatics Posted May 29, 2022 Author Share Posted May 29, 2022 Well I am finally happy with my plant selection, not sure on if this will be the finalized layout or not yet. But these plants will be here until either I kill them or I get a bigger tank. I'm going to start dialing in things more and stop messing around with new plants. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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