???Seachem Purigen and Hydrogen Peroxide

[Guppysnail]

A few questions for science folks please. I physically have negative reactions to bleach as well as will not use it for aquarium stuff. I recently decided to try purigen for organic waste removal assistance. My understanding is it is a synthetic polymer ONLY. https://www.cmu.edu/gelfand/lgc-educational-media/polymers/natural-synthetic-polymers/index.html
This to me says it is mechanical in nature much like polyfilter material not chemical or ion exchange such as Zeolite. 
 

This statement to me screams seachem making more money (no negative intended I’m a seachem type girl it’s just the nature of business marketing). This way folks buy more prime because they use mega doses to neutralize the bleach 

Years ago I did a lot of research to find alternatives to many cleaning products due to my hypersensitivity to chemicals. Hydrogen peroxide is what I clean with in my home. My understanding (correct any misconceptions I have please) matches this easy to follow article (the rest gave me a migraine it was so sciencey) https://www.hydrogenlink.com/organicmatterdegradation

So “recharging” purigen is simply removing all organic waste it has collected. Hydrogen peroxide can do that. Is there any reason my thinking is incorrect all you wonderfully sciencey nerms) All thoughts welcome as everyone over the age of 5 has more sciencey knowledge than me. 
Tagging for extra bonus knowledge please 😁

@dasaltemelosguy @Odd Duck @Torrey

[Odd Duck]

I’ve never used Purigen so I haven’t investigated it at all.  Hopefully some else can help you.  Have you checked the aquarium science.org site about it?  That’s where I would start reading.

[Guppysnail]

On 2/22/2022 at 10:58 AM, Odd Duck said:

I’ve never used Purigen so I haven’t investigated it at all.  Hopefully some else can help you.  Have you checked the aquarium science.org site about it?  That’s where I would start reading.

I just checked it out. They go over a lot about biological filtration. I’m looking using it as an added mechanical to remove organic before they break down instead of filter floss to see if it performs better than filter floss. I’m not actually replacing any of my existing 30ppi foam in any of my filters. They say nothing about h2o2 and recharging purigen just that it does not remove ammonia nitrite or nitrate.  Which I already knew it did not. I’m grabbing straws it’s that time of year my tap goes up from its normal disgusting 20-25 ppm nitrate. RO/DI or distilled is not an option for me. 

[modified lung]

My guess is if anything purigen might have an "affinity for negatively charged suspended solids" attracting them with a sort of static cling. There's a lot of bead filter medias that claim to do the same thing and it seems to work. If that's the case I don't see why hydrogen peroxide and a hard rinse wouldn't work.

I wouldn't take the aquariumscience.org guy too seriously. He has a bad case of chemist's syndrome.

[Guppysnail]

On 2/22/2022 at 1:49 PM, modified lung said:

chemist's syndrome.

Not sure what that is 🤣. I appreciate the help. Applying my domestic cleaning knowledge to the problem I did not see why it would not work but I often miss chemical science things that affect things. 

[modified lung]

On 2/22/2022 at 10:52 AM, Guppysnail said:

Not sure what that is 🤣. I appreciate the help. Applying my domestic cleaning knowledge to the problem I did not see why it would not work but I often miss chemical science things that affect things. 

It's possible I suppose the hydrogen peroxide could affect static affinity, but I wouldn't really know.

Chemist's syndrome is when a chemist thinks their expertise in chemistry makes them an expert on everything. "Biologists shouldn't do chemistry" he says as a chemist trying to do biology. Classic.

Like any other website there's both good and bad info on there. He just sounds more convincing because he packs his writing with rhetoric.

[CT_]

Aquarium science has a lot of information, some of it good, but you have to be very critical when looking at that website.  Much of it is written in stilted language that leads me to believe he or she has an axe to grind with some groups or ideas.  It's also full of quasi-scientific arguments and experiments and "appeal to (his/her) authority" type arguments.  There are things I've seen in there that are also 100% wrong.  All that said I actually do like the site and it has been a lot of food for thought for me, I just don't find it reliable. 

 

Back to the topic at hand.  Being a polymer doesn't really tell you much more than the fact that it's a largish molecule made of multiple (poly-) subunits(-mer).  Common examples are plastics, the laxative miraLAX, and your own DNA. 

 

This is seachem's description of purigen:

Quote

Purigen® is a premium synthetic adsorbent that is unlike any other filtration product. It is not a mixture of ion exchangers or adsorbents, but a unique macro-porous synthetic polymer that removes soluble and insoluble impurities from water at a rate and capacity that exceeds all other competing products by over 500%. Purigen® controls ammonia, nitrites and nitrates by removing nitrogenous organic waste that would otherwise release these harmful compounds. Purigen’s impact on trace elements is minimal. It significantly raises redox. It polishes water to unparalleled clarity. Purigen® darkens progressively as it exhausts, and is easily renewed by treating with bleach. Purigen® is designed for both marine and freshwater use.

If you take this at face value it sounds like it works much like activated carbon, but doesn't adsorb things like like "trace elements" (I don't think the micro-nutrients aquariums need are in elemental from though).

It also claims to adsorb ammonia, and nitrites and nitrates.  To "clean" that off of purigen you'd have to have something that reacts with those.  H2O2 Might oxidize ammonia, but then you're left with nitrite and nitrate, which, I assume, would stay on the purigen.  bleaching those would create chloramine, which I assume purigen doesn't have an affinity for and will dissolve into the water and off gas eventually.

H2O2 might break down other things that purigen adsorbs but its hard to say exactly what without going on a case by case basis.

 

I think at the end of the day you'd really have to just test it.  😕  It sounds like seachem tested it with bleach and is confident there, but they either didn't test it with h2o2 or it didn't work when they did. 

 

Depending on how nice your friends or partner are you could ask someone else to refresh it for you outside the house and bring it back rinsed and de-chlorinated.

 

On 2/22/2022 at 11:31 AM, modified lung said:

Chemist's syndrome is when a chemist thinks their expertise in chemistry makes them an expert on everything. "Biologists shouldn't do chemistry" he says as a chemist trying to do biology. Classic.

HA!  "Computer Scientist Syndrome" is the worst kind of syndrome. 

[Guppysnail]

Thanks folks. I’m going to run with it. I’m retired so if it does anything funky or releases ammonia etc I’ll be here to catch and correct it right away. After the first time I do it I’ll watch and see if anything becomes different in my tanks they run really stable and predictable so I’ll let you know in a few months. Bleach for me or my tanks is just a no 😞 

[Torrey]

On 2/22/2022 at 1:20 PM, Guppysnail said:

Thanks folks. I’m going to run with it. I’m retired so if it does anything funky or releases ammonia etc I’ll be here to catch and correct it right away. After the first time I do it I’ll watch and see if anything becomes different in my tanks they run really stable and predictable so I’ll let you know in a few months. Bleach for me or my tanks is just a no 😞 

My 2cents:

Chlorine kills me to be around. Headaches, hives, I even get small water blisters to let us know when the filter in the shower needs to be replaced 😬

However, if I don't eat enough salt, my sense of balance is compromised by POTS, and if I eat too much salt, Meniere's is going to have me practicing my tuck and roll. 

Salt is a very stable chemical of sodium and chloride. Either one on it's own is deadly. Drop magnesium in a vat of water, and we watch an explosion... and we need it in our bodies (80% water) or our muscles and kidneys don't work. 

@Guppysnail I absolutely understand the concerns.

My concern is hypochlorite bleach {Na+[O-Cl]-} is an ionic bond between the positively charged sodium and the negatively charged hypochlorite...

Which means if Purigen is requiring cleaning of charged ions (like ammomium) H2O2 isn't going to provide the correct charge to fully clean the purigen.

Easiest method to test the theory, is drain water from the tank, and divide it between 2 containers. Test both, to make same levels of TDS, same levels of ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and phosphates.

Dump in exact same amount of purigen, and let sit the exact same length of time. Test water to determine same amount was removed, and then remove the purigen. 

If you can get a respirator mask and gloves, you can treat one bag of purigen with the bleach water, and the other bag with H202... if that is not sufficient protection for you, you will need a partner to help you test.

Then rinse both bags of purigen, treat both with water with prime in it, and then refill the "test water containers" and repeat the process of testing the water in each container (to make sure they are identical), putting in the purigen for specified time, and testing the water again. 

If there's no difference, the purigen is not relying on an ionic bond to attract the waste, and doesn't need the charge as the NaClO breaks down into NaCl, and H2O (as well as the components released from the purigen from contaminants).

I hope I explained that well enough? Chemistry is easier for me to explain when I can see the person's face when I try to explain it. 😅

My best friend understood biology and animals, was positive she couldn't understand chemistry. So I turned chemical equations that needed to be balanced into ants, and molecular weights used for atomic ID into emus....

And she aced her final exam. 

And... I don't know if I muddied the chemistry waters with my explanation. 

::cue autistic awkwardness over potentially unwanted info dumping::

[Guppysnail]

On 2/23/2022 at 6:03 AM, Torrey said:

Chlorine kills me to be around. Headaches, hives, I even get small water blisters to let us know when the filter in the shower needs to be replaced 😬

This is what happens to me almost to a T. Your bonus knowledge explanation was perfect 🙂. I will do the testing you recommend and see how it goes. After @modified lung said about the ion charge I was thinking about this. Hubby bleaches EVERYTHING!  So he can help me. Looks like this is yet another fear of chemicals conquering moment. I have not had a single crippling muscle spasm since you recommended reintroducing salt into my diet 🙂 a few months ago. I have a tds meter “somewhere” bought and never used...I’m terrible about things like that so I will dig it out. 

Your kindness and willingness to share the knowledge you have done the work to learn is very appreciated. 🙂 

[Torrey]

On 2/23/2022 at 4:27 AM, Guppysnail said:

This is what happens to me almost to a T. Your bonus knowledge explanation was perfect 🙂. I will do the testing you recommend and see how it goes. After @modified lung said about the ion charge I was thinking about this. Hubby bleaches EVERYTHING!  So he can help me. Looks like this is yet another fear of chemicals conquering moment. I have not had a single crippling muscle spasm since you recommended reintroducing salt into my diet 🙂 a few months ago. I have a tds meter “somewhere” bought and never used...I’m terrible about things like that so I will dig it out. 

Your kindness and willingness to share the knowledge you have done the work to learn is very appreciated. 🙂 

If you can't find your TDS meter easily, I can share that the ZeroWater has already paid for itself in our household. 

Initial investment: $31

Included dispenser (40x 8 oz cup)

Filter (good for up to 40 gallons, depending on TDS of source water) 

TDS meter

Has already saved us $12 in gas, plus time and energy to go buy bottled water for spouse and I to drink. And the dogs. And I don't have to use the Prime (this is a big deal for the turtle).

And the TDS meter helped me mix perfect water for the turtle pond: 4:1 Pür:ZeroWater, until I can get the full chemical makeup of our source water. 

Not to mention, the ZeroWater tastes delicious! But zero TDS... I might have to remineralize it for regular drinking water 😅

[Andy's Fish Den]

I have a sensitivity to bleach from being exposed to chlorine gas during a workplace accident years ago, so I can't be around bleach being used. All I use in my fish room is hydrogen peroxide and vinegar for cleaning. As far as recharging Purigen, I have never used it, so I can't help with that. 

[modified lung]

@Guppysnail I just wanted to emphasis that I have no idea how purigen actually works and was just speculating a possibility. CT_ and Torrey gave much better advice than I did.

[Biotope Biologist]

Sounds like sensitivity to chemicals is more common than I thought. My brother and I have suffered from bleach and chlorine sensitivity since we were kids. We used to carry around prescription strength hydrocortisone cream with steroids as our sensitive areas would sting and breakout if we went into any hotel or resort pool.

 

I stay far far away as the smell of dilute bleach burns my nose and gives me nose bleeds.

 

I have no insights to add to this conversation, I also avoid aquariumscience.org entirely. No point in reading if you have to then research each point to make sure he isn’t biasing the data he espouses.

[modified lung]

On 2/23/2022 at 9:19 AM, Biotope Biologist said:

No point in reading if you have to then research each point to make sure he isn’t biasing the data he espouses.

He's totally doing that

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 2/22/2022 at 1:49 PM, CT_ said:

"appeal to (his/her) authority"

Is my classical rhetoric alarm going off?!  Argument from authority!  It is.  It is!  🥰 

Sorry, I just don't run into loads of people espousing formal rhetoric much on the internet.  A great skill, and under appreciated.  Well played!