Jump to content

Dwarf/Teacup Fish: Harmed by their shape?


CalmedByFish
 Share

Recommended Posts

I have "dwarf red coral platies" and do very much like them. However, I keep wondering if having been bred to be short has decreased their quality of life at all. Best I can tell, being short caused their organs to have to bunch up and extend downward.

While my fish are active, eat well, and appear healthy, I don't have confidence that continuing to let them breed is ethical.

Anybody know whether fish experience any negative effects from having been unnaturally bred like this?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a pretty deep question. I am not sure if their organs are necessarily bunched up in a detrimental way. It could be that in nature, they just would get eaten and outcompeted because of their shape. But in an aquarium, it is possible that they are fine with their quality of life as is.

If they appear healthy, and if they are thriving for you, it is probably just a variation on much of the same thing that the entire hobby has been doing for a century now.

Here is how I think about this:

(1) If it is unethical to breed fish in a way that is aesthetically pleasing to people in human captivity, then that is true of nearly all aquatics and the entire hobby is an issue

(2) Ex situ private hobby fish-keeping does protect, multiply, and service healthy lives of many captive-bred and selectively bred fish species that would not survive in the wild. All captive breeding is, in at least the most basic respect, "unnatural." But this does not necessarily make it unethical.

That's at least how I think about it. 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Fish Folk You make good points. Thank you.

Bouncing off the topic of ethics in fish keeping: Since posting this thread, I've been looking online for a lfs that I could take my extra endlers to. Not wanting to waste time, I used betta care as a good clue for how well they treat fish. If they're selling bettas in cups, or selling unfiltered tiny tanks for them, I'd skip over the store.

Then it occurred to me that putting a betta in a cup is only barely worse than my current situation. My most overstocked container is 3.6 gallons with 13 nearly-grown female endlers. It's full of pothos roots and hornwort, but I can't keep nitrates down. Being tired of water changes is my main motive in trying to give away some of my endlers... or 3/4 of them. 

13 endlers in 3.6 gallons. 🙈 Gosh.

I guess even somebody who's trying to be conscientious is going to blindly mess up sometimes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@CalmedByFishI think we have the same platy type and what I would say is that they can complete any and all activities of daily living, breed and swim and have no issues. To me if the selective breeding leads to a fish not being able to live a full life then that is a problem. Some examples are ribbon guppies that have such a long gonopodium they can't be bred, balloon species that can not swim well and have swim bladder issues, goldish that are chronically constipated and sick due to their breeding that has squished their intestines. 

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/20/2021 at 5:03 PM, Beardedbillygoat1975 said:

@CalmedByFishI think we have the same platy type and what I would say is that they can complete any and all activities of daily living, breed and swim and have no issues. To me if the selective breeding leads to a fish not being able to live a full life then that is a problem. Some examples are ribbon guppies that have such a long gonopodium they can't be bred, balloon species that can not swim well and have swim bladder issues, goldish that are chronically constipated and sick due to their breeding that has squished their intestines. 

Yeah, we and @Ireneare the only forum members with them, as far as I remember. 

Your view makes good sense to me. Thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll say that in addition to ribbon guppies, I feel like my Moscow guppies are not exactly Darwin models. They would not survive in a state of nature with any kind of predator around, they just cannot move fast enough. But they can enjoy life in a tank with peaceful tank mates and live a normal guppy lifespan, so I'd say whether or not one keeps them is a matter of preference rather than ethics.

If the teacup platies eat, live, and give birth as well as their larger counterparts, then maybe it's like they are 15 lb dogs compared to 50 lb dogs, instead of being like "teacup" poodles etc. who do have some physiological challenges due to extreme smallness.

Edited by PineSong
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

They are a super solid breed in my opinion, I got the idea from one of Cory's videos awhile back and have really enjoyed them. The fry are about the cutest thing you've ever seen. I totally understand where @CalmedByFishis coming from though. It is a conundrum when buying any animal at this point. @PineSongyou bring up a good point about the Moscows, I have the Blue Hawaiian Moscows and I have to say that some of the older males if I didn't overfeed I am not sure they would survive. 

95FEA7B3-62C3-44AC-8241-90A0937FAFFD.jpeg.8feabfbb4d33a5c120e550d99f119634.jpeg 

  • Like 4
  • Love 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/20/2021 at 7:11 PM, PineSong said:

Yup, that fry is an award winner! I think platy fry are about the cutest, but mine take forever to show any color. 

The base color of your platies is white or silvery, right? As far as I remember, red platies are the first live bearers I've had that were anything but silver/gray when born. All guppies and endlers have been silver/gray. I don't remember about my dalmation molly fry though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/20/2021 at 8:46 PM, CalmedByFish said:

The base color of your platies is white or silvery, right? As far as I remember, red platies are the first live bearers I've had that were anything but silver/gray when born. All guppies and endlers have been silver/gray. I don't remember about my dalmation molly fry though.

My mom platies are dark blue with clear fins. Dad was whoever the LFS allowed them to spend time with. My fry were pale, ranging from blah cream color to pale, pale peach as babies. Now they are orange tux (!) with some being more yellow and not very pretty (to me) but others being truly orange. They are about 3 months old now.

After 2 months with no more LFS fry, I added a green lantern male to the tank in hopes of getting blue/green babies in future. New fry born in the past week are colorless with black trim on fins and on some of them, what look like vertical black stripes. I assume those will turn into something else since that's not a platy color form. It'll be fun to see what happens.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/20/2021 at 8:03 PM, PineSong said:

My mom platies are dark blue with clear fins. Dad was whoever the LFS allowed them to spend time with. My fry were pale, ranging from blah cream color to pale, pale peach as babies. Now they are orange tux (!)

It's so interesting that blue and whatever made orange tux! I would've thought blue would be involved. 

Good luck with your new color!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/23/2021 at 5:06 PM, Beardedbillygoat1975 said:

The fry come out with a light orange peach color and develop that deep orange to red as they age. My adult males are deep orange to red, kind of a brick color. I'll see if I can get a pic that represents it for you. 

Curious. I have 6 adults (and about 20 fry). Of the 2 adult males, 1 is very dark red - like a layer of red paint on top a layer of brown paint. The lightest color is the largest female. She could almost be called orange. 

Do you suppose it's common for males to be darker than females, much like other species have more colorful males than females?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/23/2021 at 7:22 PM, Beardedbillygoat1975 said:

@CalmedByFishits all about attracting partners and the darker more intense colors would be more attractive. That along with generations of selective breeding would set the colors. 

Makes perfect sense with the behavior I'm seeing. That super dark red male... how shall we say this... never quits. Ahem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Fish Folk your first post made me think if sexual section which is pretty much nature's equivalent of humans breeding for looks. There are so many examples in nature of a species developing a trait that actually decreases its ability to survive purely for looks the other sex finds attractive.

 

I think where the line between that and "going too far" is when it seriously impairs a species' ability to thrive. Short-snouted dogs comes to mind. Living their whole lives with difficulty breathing. There's many examples in dog breeds. Some are unable to give birth without a surgery which greatly increases mortality rates during delivery. Sometimes because owners don't know this and don't bring them in!  I don't know much about the species in the OP but from what I've learned of fish so far in my VERY short time in the hobby (a little over a month) it seems I haven't found a species that fully fits this. Some do come to mind that I question though.  Even one I own. Glofish. THERE I SAID IT!  THE FIRST FISH I BOUGHT WAS GLO TETRAS LOL!! 😂😂

Edited by Cinnebuns
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/23/2021 at 11:38 PM, Cinnebuns said:

I think where the line between that and "going too far" is when it seriously impairs a species' ability to thrive. Short-snouted dogs comes to mind. Living their whole lives with difficulty breathing. 

Dogs that have trouble breathing are actually my go-to thought regarding whether intentional breeding is ethical. It's an example that's terribly easy to empathize with. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/23/2021 at 11:51 PM, CalmedByFish said:

Dogs that have trouble breathing are actually my go-to thought regarding whether intentional breeding is ethical. It's an example that's terribly easy to empathize with. 

I completely agree. I will preface this with the fact that I know nothing about the fish species you originally mentioned and am very limited on knowledge in general on fish as I am new. However, from what I've learned so far I don't think fish go to the same extent dogs do. I would liken those changes more akin to the sexual selection traits like a peacocks feathers which yes does decrease his survivability, but does not lower his quality of life. I wouldn't put it on the same level as what dogs have gone through. Doesn't mean it's 100% clean though. Just an area of gray. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...