Lampeye lost part of his face (Warning: Graphic images!)

[eatyourpeas]

One of my Lampeyes has had a white face for a few days. I had attributed it to maybe an injury, even though the skin did not look broken. It was more of an internal coloring inside the top part of his face. Today he is missing the top part of his face, and one eye is pretty much gone. His fins are intact, his gills look normal, he is swimming and alert, but shows a bit of a sunken belly, maybe due to not being able to eat.

I have taken him out and am treating him with Melafix and aquarium salt.

Tank parameters:

Ammonia: 0, Nitrites: 0, Nitrates: 0, pH: 7, GH: 150, KH: 80, Chorine: 0, Temp.: 76F

12 gal. with lots of filtration, last WC a week ago, 40%

Heavily planted tank with other Lampeyes, CDPs, Neocaridina shrimp, and assortment of pest snails. Everyone else looks to be fine.

Can't figure out what he has and whether I need to treat the whole tank. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by eatyourpeas

[eatyourpeas]

The little guy died. I am still puzzled by the look, but suspect a bacterial infection that ate away the flesh. The whole front of the face is missing.

 

There is a blackness that seems to be spreading from the upper left eye area.

 

I decided to treat the whole tank with Melafix. These fish came with so many health issues, it is really discouraging. 😟

[OnlyGenusCaps]

I am sorry that batch of fish is still breaking your heart.  I understand how discouraging it can be to have a set of fish that end up with challenging health issues.  I am impressed with your persistence!  You've done all you can for these little ones. 

[Colu]

It looks like mouth rot  the only effective treatment is antibiotics like kanaplex and furan2 together for advanced stages it can be contagious I would recommend doing a course of kanaplex in food for your remaining fish and adding a small amount of aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 5 gallons as a proventive treatment if more of your fish develope the same symptoms I would treat with kanaplex and jungal fungas clear fizz tabs together following this treatment schedule replacing furan2 for jungal fungas clear fizz tabs

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Colu

[eatyourpeas]

Thank you, @Colu, I will give that a try. Furan-2 is not available, but my LFS has Kanaplex so I'll be picking that one up and adding salt.

[Odd Duck]

This fairly likely started with an injury that could even have damaged the circulation to the area, so treating the entire tank intensively may not be necessary or indicated.  If you see ANY symptoms in anybody else, start treating.  But most fish pathogens are always present and act mostly as opportunists that take advantage of injuries or suppressed immune systems from stress or other causes.  This could even have been an erosive neoplasia (cancer) rather than a more common, mass type, cancer.

I would caution everybody to use antibiotics wisely, very judiciously, and only if there is reason to think it has a chance of being effective for a known problem at hand.  @eatyourpeas please don’t think I’m picking on you for this.  I popped into this thread just to see if I could help since you are so quick to reach out to help others.  The rest of this is very in general food for thought for everyone.

 

Please, everyone, always remember that every antibiotic IS a toxin and will almost certainly affect your fish at least to some extent.  The goal is to deliver a toxic dose to the microorganism without reaching a toxic level for the organism you are trying to treat for the infection.  I’m clearly far from medication phobic, I prescribe antibiotics for probably 90% of my patients doing emergency work.

I also think we drastically overuse medications in fish care (which is why people in some countries can’t get them over the counter like we can in the USA).  Overuse and incorrect use puts us at huge risk of developing medication resistant strains of bacteria and funguses.  Gram negative bacteria, especially Gram negative rods (the most common bacterial pathogen group in fish), tend to inherently have significant resistance to many antibiotics just based on the structure of their cell walls.  Gram negative rods are also notorious for sharing their resistance between strains and even across types of bacteria, so then everybody in the pool has resistance to XYZ antibiotic and nothing works to treat the newest infection.  People often try to treat Ich with antibiotics which has minimal to no effect on Ich, but could create resistant bacteria in the tank.  They often try to treat bacterial infections with antifungals thinking they are fungal infections when they aren’t.

I tend to stay away from the diseases forum for the most part because I already see so many sick and injured animals on every work day and on my vet forums.  It gets to be a bit much.  Plus I feel like I would be trotting out this lecture on many posts, so I just don’t want to go there.

Always remember, that providing the best husbandry overall which includes offering the best water quality we can, the best quality and variety of species appropriate foods we can manage, with minimal stressors in and around the tank, is the biggest favor we can do for our wet pets.  Exotic pet care is ALL about husbandry.

Low dose salt at 1 tablespoon per gallon, is safe for most species in most situations.  It reduces metabolic stress for most freshwater species, and can help clear some infections by minimizing osmotic stress on the fish and increasing osmotic stress on some parasites or other pathogens.  If you choose to add salt, use only pure sodium chloride, no anticaking ingredients and no iodine.  When doing water changes, replace the salt only in the replacement water.  Do NOT redose for the entire tank volume.

If you decide to use medication, please do your best to try to make certain it’s actually an infection that will be sensitive to the medication you choose.  Fungal infections rarely appear in just 24-48 hours, those are more likely to be bacterial.  If you are certain there was no lesion 2 days ago and there’s a fluffy, slimy looking growth, it’s more likely to be bacterial than fungal.  If it’s kind of lumpy and whitish or mixed color, and has been slowly increasing, that’s actually more likely to be fungal.  But it could also be a tumor which is a long shot for responding to antibiotic (unless it has gotten an infection secondary to the mass).  If it’s extra pink, or red, that’s when you USE the antibiotics!

Please dose exactly as labeled for the entire duration recommended.  Stopping treatment early or underdosing increases risk of resistant bacteria surviving and proliferating.  Jumping from one antibiotic to another, to another, is a good way to grow resistant bacteria.  All the —“fix” medications can cause respiratory issues in fish so I consider them contraindicated for any fish that have red or irritated gills or especially if they are gasping at the top of the tank (add aeration and test water immediately).

The “fix” medications can be useful for topical application to wounds, but there are more effective and safer treatments like dilute povidone iodine solution (NOT SCRUBS) swabbed directly on the wound.

If you’ve lasted this long through this entire missive, thank you for your patience and persistence.  Use whatever part of it helps you make decisions for your pets/tanks.

Anyone is welcome to tag me in disease posts but I can’t promise how quick I can answer or how complete my answer can be (sometimes for legal reasons), or even IF I will answer (sometimes I’m exhausted after a long overnight and it might be days before I get on the forum).

If you tag me, please have all water parameters (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, GH, KH, tank size, water change amounts and frequency, filtration information, etc, available because that’s going to be the first things I ask about.  Include the circumstances when the symptoms were noticed, when the fish was last known to be normal, any changes in the symptoms, progression, regression, etc.  Anything you can add can help me (or anyone else with the knowledge or experience) have a better chance to figure out the best treatment or IF treatment is needed.

Sorry about it all, I’m stepping off the soapbox now.

[Hoi Polloi]

@Odd Duck 
I read the whole post 👀 and I'm curious as to a quarantine practice? 
For instance: Salt with no meds? 

Definitely, bookmarking this post. Thanks for the info. 

[Odd Duck]

On 12/18/2021 at 9:12 PM, Hoi Polloi said:

@Odd Duck 
I read the whole post 👀 and I'm curious as to a quarantine practice? 
For instance: Salt with no meds? 

Definitely, bookmarking this post. Thanks for the info. 

30 to 45 days for me, no meds, no salt unless somebody looks off or iffy.  I didn’t follow my own advice (did 45 days but no salt on a group that had a couple iffy, geriatric fish I got locally 🤦🏻‍♀️) and got Ich in my 100 gallon.  Treated with heat, salt, and a small UV filter, symptoms gone in 3 days for most, one ember had a single spot that persisted for a week.  I kept the salt in for 2 weeks and the UV filter for 6 weeks or so (was very paranoid after the first Ich breakout I’ve had in decades).

Speaking of UV filters, @eatyourpeas do you have a UV filter?  I got mine for about $40.00 , I think?  That might be very helpful in your situation.  There won’t be any risk of antibiotic resistance and you’re more likely to clear any potentially contagious pathogens out of the water.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Odd Duck I've been interested in getting a UV, can you link to the one you have? Just as a jumping off point?

[eatyourpeas]

Thank you, @Odd Duck, I so appreciate that advice as I am not fond of antibiotics. I have added the Melafix and the salt, and will have the Kanaplex as a backup. The little guy did not have any visibly external injuries, but because they are so transparent I did see an internal white spot in the upper face area. None of the other fish are showing any symptoms, so I am watching carefully.

These little fish came so beat up from the LFS shipment that I am not surprised if an injury occurred while in transport. I will not jump to any antibiotics if I can avoid it. I do not like what they do. I will look into the UV filter, thank you. I am keeping a close watch on the water parameters.

I am hoping no one else gets this. 🙁

[Odd Duck]

On 12/18/2021 at 9:48 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@Odd Duck I've been interested in getting a UV, can you link to the one you have? Just as a jumping off point?

This is the one I got.  Under $40.00, worked on green water I was struggling with in the 100 gallon (because I’m terrible at following my own advice sometimes) and again on the Ich.  It was too big for my 20 long the way I had it set up (too much hardscape to fit it in) when I wanted to treat the green water in there (again, don’t always do what I know I should 🤦🏻‍♀️).  It would fit (just) in a mostly bare 10 gallon if you had to, but it would be quite a bit of current.  I do have coarse foam inserts inside this filter to cover the intake slots since they are pretty big for nano fish, especially my chili rasboras.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Odd Duck thank you- it's a jumping off point for sure anyway- as my biggest tank is 20 smallest is a 4 so I'll start there and look downward and see what options I have. Sometimes shopping is like a youtube rabbit hole- you have to follow one product to another....

[Odd Duck]

On 12/18/2021 at 10:03 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@Odd Duck thank you- it's a jumping off point for sure anyway- as my biggest tank is 20 smallest is a 4 so I'll start there and look downward and see what options I have. Sometimes shopping is like a youtube rabbit hole- you have to follow one product to another....

If I remember right, when I was searching, I saw some HOB style UV filters that would be better suited to smaller tanks.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Odd Duck yes i'm seeing those now that I pulled up your recommendation- those would likely be my best option

[Odd Duck]

On 12/18/2021 at 9:49 PM, eatyourpeas said:

Thank you, @Odd Duck, I so appreciate that advice as I am not fond of antibiotics. I have added the Melafix and the salt, and will have the Kanaplex as a backup. The little guy did not have any visibly external injuries, but because they are so transparent I did see an internal white spot in the upper face area. None of the other fish are showing any symptoms, so I am watching carefully.

These little fish came so beat up from the LFS shipment that I am not surprised if an injury occurred while in transport. I will not jump to any antibiotics if I can avoid it. I do not like what they do. I will look into the UV filter, thank you. I am keeping a close watch on the water parameters.

I am hoping no one else gets this. 🙁

I hope no one else shows any symptoms.  The white spot could have been infection or lost tissue vitality from trauma.  My lfs is pretty good about telling me if they think I should wait before buying from a batch of fish if I ask the right person.  There’s some I trust, but they’ve got some newbies that I don’t know well enough yet to trust.

[eatyourpeas]

Today I spent a non-trivial amount of time watching the tank while studying for an exam. I also reviewed some earlier photos of the Lampeye and the ones I lost. So, I did the following:

- Stopped the Melafix and did a 35% WC, and did not add any salt.

- The deceased Lampeye did look like it had mouth rot by the time it died. But at no point before that there was any redness or external sores. I am going to assume an injury gone bad.

- None of the remaining fish are showing signs of disease or stress.

- Got Kanaplex, and will use it if there is any indication that antibiotics are needed.

- I will do another WC midweek.

I am hoping that this would help the remaining critters stay healthy and fight any bad stuff on their own. I know medications tend to add stress, so if I see anyone in need of it, I will isolate and treat.

Thank you @Colu and @Odd Duck as your advice has been extremely helpful in moving forward.

Hopefully, it is all going to be well now. We'll see.

On 12/18/2021 at 8:11 PM, Odd Duck said:

My lfs is pretty good about telling me if they think I should wait before buying from a batch of fish if I ask the right person.  There’s some I trust, but they’ve got some newbies that I don’t know well enough yet to trust.

Yes, my LFS is good that way. They did special order these fish for me, so in this case they do not have a way to quarantine them due to space.

On 12/18/2021 at 7:39 PM, Odd Duck said:

Speaking of UV filters,

I need to figure out a UV rig since my tanks are tiny, so none of those filters will work. But I do like the idea of sterilization. Perhaps a mini sump dedicated to special treatments may be the way to go for me.

[Odd Duck]

@eatyourpeasThis all sounds like a good plan to me!

[Guppysnail]

I use 3 sizes of green killing machine in my smaller tanks and in line on large the clip on 3 watt and the 6 and 9 watt internal. Different of my tanks get direct sun all day at differentiates of the year. They work fantastic for keeping crystal clear water. I have no idea if they are powerful enough for bacteria  I like them.