Patrick_G Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 I need to avert my eyes, those fish are giving me perma-grin! 😁 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beardedbillygoat1975 Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 Well done @Vinmand thanks so much for the great pictures and updates! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaintoppufferkeeper Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 I'm looking forward to seeing them grow for you. Such a great puffer species to work with. Do they change colors like the adults as they grow and learn to camouflage? Have you seen any do the puffing up exercise yet? When one of my palustris fry did that the first time i about lost it....and of course i was just in awe and didn't snap a photo. Congrats on the great success with these. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinm Posted January 18, 2022 Author Share Posted January 18, 2022 (edited) Today the parents laid there third round of eggs. Fingers crossed these ones last. Last ones were eaten up in two days. Yes mountain they change their colors from light brown to the dark colors you see in the pictures but way slower than the parents can. The only time I've seen them puff up is when they bite each other during feeding by accident but that rarely happens. I've seen it two times. I'll try to get some pics of he new eggs asap. The mother won't move from the top of them this time which is weird. Normally she lays and then bails. I did noticed that this time I did tank maintenance and cut back the plants as they were outa control and did a water change about 30% with cooler water. The next morning they laid eggs Edited January 19, 2022 by Vinm 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minanora Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 Exciting! Loving the photos. Thank you for sharing! Fingers crossed that you get more babies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaintoppufferkeeper Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 My breeder Pao palustris male will eat all eggs occasionally and then guard the next batch like a gladiator. I bet there is a method to the Pao baileyi and Pao palustris madness on that. It has happened twice for me where a whole spawn vanishes around day 2 and then a big batch gets going shortly after 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dancing Matt Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 I am loving the thread, thank you for sharing. I am curious, what are you going to do with that many puffers? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaintoppufferkeeper Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 On 1/24/2022 at 2:02 PM, Dancing Matt said: I am loving the thread, thank you for sharing. I am curious, what are you going to do with that many puffers? Me too - the guy with 3 adult, twelve 3 month old, and probably 75 1 day old Pao cf palustris 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinm Posted January 25, 2022 Author Share Posted January 25, 2022 Well..... The male ate the eggs again around day three. He does it at night time so I don't see him do it. I'm thinking the next batch I'll pull asap and get an egg tumbler to put them in. Any input on the tumblers on how well they work? I've never used one before. I'm still debating on what to do with the baby puffers. Whether to sell them off or keep them and raise them up until they pair off so I can be sure to have more chances to breed these amazing puffers. I have about 25 left as of now. I lose 1 here and there and it's usually the smallest. I'm pretty sure the others stress the weakest out to the point where they don't eat and die a few days later. There seems to be a pack of ten or so that have grouped up and stay in one corner of the tank. It's the corner I usually feed in. The others scatter around and forage else where in the tank. Weird part about the big group is its not all like the biggest ones. There is smaller ones apart of that group too. I was extremely lucky to recieve a pair that mated from only purchasing two from a supplier who told me that they only had what they thought were males due to them all having the hairs on their face. This was another source, which I have seen elsewhere as well, that relayed that the females do Not have the hairy appearance and are suppose to be smooth. This is clearly not true which makes distinguishing males from females almost impossible. I stare at these puffers almost every day and I am not able to tell and major differences between the two. The female is quite a it larger but other than that the coloration, fin orientation, hairs, demeanor, habits, not while mating, are all the same. This is the main reason that makes me want to keep them until pairs start showing themselves but housing them all will be a challenge. If I decide to part with them I'll definitely let you guys know. This is my fish rack right now 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaintoppufferkeeper Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 @Vinm That is a great looking setup and great information on the process of getting a pair. I also tend to view the larges as the female in my trio based off of how they behave when showing courtship behaviors. I am curious if you see any difference in the head shape or proportions of the mouth to eyes etc between the two? I haven't noticed any in my group but there are other pao that seem to have slight differences in these ratios. If you have one of those wyze type cameras I do use those to do a bit of surveillance on my groups and have used the IR function to see their activities at night. I did try the ziss tumbler with the palustris eggs but it did not work for me; it was my first time trying so likely just my inexperience with the set up but they all went bad quickly for some reason. After that experience I have not attempted to tumble puffer eggs again. I have had success using the coop specimen container with methylene blue (MB) at a concentration of a light blue tinge to the water. I put 1 drop in a container with some tank water in another container and siphon that solution through the airline to hopefully sanitize it before I use to siphon the eggs; I then siphon a little of the MB into the container then start the siphon through the airline with water from parents tank. For the Pao cf palustris, I take a long pair of tongs and use those to hold and guide the already primed airline into the cave and siphon the eggs out of there and into the container. I put that container floating/hanging inside a tank that I run at 74-76 degrees with a rigid airline tube bubbling 2 bubbles per second or so to maintain a little water movement. Once they hatch out I put a cube of polyfilter in to help maintain water quality and remove the remaining MB then feed them in there for 14 to 21 days before releasing them into a grow out tank. I may just be lucky but I have not had one egg go bad using that container method. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinm Posted January 28, 2022 Author Share Posted January 28, 2022 The eyes and head shapes look very similar to one another and any variation, because it is so minor, I chalk up to just being that it is a different fish just like people look different. I'll post pics of each soon so you can see. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinm Posted February 1, 2022 Author Share Posted February 1, 2022 (edited) The one at the top is the male Posted in the pictures below is the female. Let me know if you guys notice any attributes that would distinguish the 2 if you've never seen them before. As you can see they both have hairs or are hairy. The only reason I know which is which is that I've seen the one in the nest laying the eggs and after the male guards them and won't let her near the nesting area. Edited February 6, 2022 by Vinm 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beardedbillygoat1975 Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 ORD @Vinmthanks to you and @mountaintoppufferkeeperfor continuing to post great informative content that tempts me to no end to get off my behind and grab a nice group of puffers! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaintoppufferkeeper Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 @Vinm they look great. Its probably me just trying to find a difference where there might not be but does the male have a shorter "nose" than the female? In the photo, The distance of the eyes to the top of the mouth looks to be shorter in the top puffer vs the bottom. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinm Posted February 4, 2022 Author Share Posted February 4, 2022 Yes mountain. The nose of the male is a little shorter but he is also quite a bit smaller than the female so I just chalked it up to them being different. Kinda like people look different. But who knows I'll have to wait and see on the juveniles as they grow if the long nose trait is a thing to identify male to female. I've lost a few of the juveniles here and there at random and I think it's due to feeding. Some are taking cut up frozen blood worms and others are not. I have to feed bbs like 4 times a day to keep the others fat but it causes issues with hydra. So cleaning the tank once a week to get rid of as many hydra as I can and feeding as much as I can to keep them fat is a constant balance and struggle. They get skinny in like a 10 hour period if I don't feed frequently. Wish a lfs sold live black worms or blood worms near me it would make this waaaaayyyyy easier. Gonna have to perfect a different set up next time to make it easier. I'm thinking like what Dean does with his fry in the small containers that are in a large container so that the water volume is much greater and harder to foul. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odd Duck Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 On 2/2/2022 at 8:13 AM, mountaintoppufferkeeper said: @Vinm they look great. Its probably me just trying to find a difference where there might not be but does the male have a shorter "nose" than the female? In the photo, The distance of the eyes to the top of the mouth looks to be shorter in the top puffer vs the bottom. The “bump” near the male’s mouth might be gender related, might be just a personal trait. Someone was pointing out to me the other day, they think there’s a smidge more of a “bump” effect on the “nose” of male bristlenose plecos even when extremely young. 🤷🏻♀️ No relation to puffers, but maybe just something to watch for in your F1’s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torrey Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 The hair / spikes of the male are a little longer, and a bit more consistently pronounced. The female's look less uniform in size, and are not as long or pronounced as the male's. Of course, I don't know if these are consistent variations🤷♂️ I'm the grandparent of twins who were mono/duo identical (same amniotic sac, but each grew their own umbilical cord) and the majority of people can't tell them apart... I've had almost 3 years of training to find differences. Beyond that, I can see the nose length is slightly different, but that looks proportional to each. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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