I am in a real mess and need advice please. I am so worried. (Warning, there is a pic of a dead fish)

[Goldie Blue]

Hi all, I am new here, and also fairly new to the hobby as well and I am having serious issues I'd like to ask questions about. I have had a 55g set up with no issues since Feb of this year. I'll give you a brief rundown of my setup, water parameters and then get into the issue.

55g with an Eheim 350 classic canister filter. Initially stocked with 12 white cloud minnows, 1 male Halfmoon Betta, 5 male endler guppies, 2 assassin snails, 1 clown pleco, and 12 pygmy cories.

Water has been tested by 3 LFS and all of them said it was fine, and it's been the same even after 4 different 30% water changes in the last 2 weeks.

pH is 8.0 (always is this high, never been a problem)

0ppm Ammonia

0ppm Nitrite

I think Nitrate is 5.0 -10ppm but I am not sure, so attaching a photo.

Water temp is 80

Now, here are my issues. Two weeks ago I stupidly brought home 10 female guppies for the male endlers from PetCo, and didn't quarantine them because until this happened, I didn't know you had to. VERY hard lesson learned because I am sure you know what's coming next. Within 5 days all of the guppies died off, with no visible signs of illness. I took the receipt along with water sample to PetCo, and the girl was like "It's not your water, all our females die", they gave me the refund and I was pretty sad about it but figured since it was just them that we were in the clear.

Once I got home that same afternoon I noticed that one of my pygmy cories had a white puffball thing on one of his fins, looked like a cotton ball, so I took a water sample to the first LFS and he suggested Pimafix/Melafix. Not knowing any better, I put it in and it didn't do much. Over the course of the next few days, fish would start losing their color, and then be dead in the morning. I have lost at least 10 more of my established fish in the last week.

I went to two more LFS, all of them told me my water was fine, suggested water changes which I did, and also suggested Pimafix/Melafix. So I stumbled across the wonderful Co-Op YouTube channel and found the info for the medicating trio (Maracyn, Paracleanse, Ich-X). I was able to hunt down two of the items and had to order Ich-X on Amazon. Today I lost 4 more fish before putting the meds in, and 2 more since adding the meds, but to be fair they were on their way out before the trio went in. 

Here is my main concern as of right now: I have my male Halfmoon Betta who is my pride and joy in this tank, and I was in the process of setting up a 10 gallon for him (it's been cycling for a week) because the flow from the filter in my 55g is just too strong and I know he's not happy. I really do not want him to die, and I don't know what to do. The trio of meds is in the tank and he looks really stressed out. Should I leave him in there to medicate and hope for the best, or should I pull him out into a bowl with daily water changes until his 10g is cycled? 

I am so stressed out losing this many fish in such a short amount of time, but if my betta dies I will be devastated. Since that 1 cory with the cotton ball on his fin died, I have not seen any other fish with any visible signs on their skin of infections or disease, so I have no idea what is going on. I am attaching a photo of one of my white clouds that passed away this morning, as I am not sure if these black marks on him are just the markings, or something else. 

I am really new to all of this, so any in depth, clear explanations or help will be fantastic. My immediate goal is helping the remainder of the fish, but at this point, what do I do to ensure my betta can survive this? If you need anymore information please just let me know, and thank you in advance for ANY help. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Goldie Blue

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Hi @Goldie Blue I'm very sorry for your troubles. Sadly this is a lesson on Quarantining new fish- we all learn things the hard way in this hobby don't beat yourself up about it, just do what you can to help your remaining fish. 

It sounds like the guppies may have brought a fungal infection with them, as the cotton fluff you noticed is indicative of that. Here is a good informational page on treating fungus and some of the causes from the Aquarium Co-op

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/fish-fungus

As far as the med trio, with weakened fish all three at once can be very stressful for them. There are recommendations for weakened fish when using the med trio:

"If you have very weak fish, it may be easier on their bodies to space out the treatment. Bacterial infections are the most common, so use Maracyn first for a week (at the dosage recommended in Step 4). Ich and external parasites are the second most common, so next treat the fish with Ich-X for a week. Internal worms and gill flukes are slower-acting pathogens, so dose ParaCleanse in the third week."

The recommended treatment would be Maracyn and IchX for the fungus however so you could consider skipping the ParaCleanse until after treament of fungus. These are all shot calls we have to make in the hobby because nobody is in your house, in your shoes with your tank. 

As far as the picture of your dead fish: is there anything different about it that wasn't when it was living? For example were those spots/marks there before it died and normal, does it have less fin that it did before? I can't tell myself I apologize. Have you seen any other signs or symptoms? Behaviors, markings, bloating, poop looking funny, etc?

THEN your Betta. This is your call. Does he have any symptoms of illness? What signs of stress are you observing? Their fins being so long they are suseptible to fungus, fin rot and all sorts of other illness. Thing is it doesn't sound like you have a working Quarantine tank for him, how far along is the 10 gallon tank? There is potential to move him there but his condtions would have to be very, very carefully monitored for what would essentially be a "fish in" cycle. This could be hard for a betta. I've found them to be very hard to keep, super sensitive to changes in their environment. 

Our friend @Colu here is very good at helping with medications and we have lots of other users with experience who will hopefully put up some input too, but I wanted to answer you so you had something to start thinking about. 88

****also you may want to consider adding airstones to your tank, when medicating it can really help

Edited December 6, 2021 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Goldie Blue]

@xXInkedPhoenixX Thank you SO much for your reply and kindness. I do have a large airstone in the tank already, so I am all set there. 

As for the marks on the dead fish, I honestly feel horrible for not knowing the answer. All the gold colored ones have it, and I looked up images of that species online and it looked the same. With the exception of that one cory who had the visible cotton ball on his fin, none of these fish look like they have anything wrong.

As for my sweet betta boy, he also does not look visibly ill, his fins all look great, he (and all the others) are eating. When I dosed the trio of meds in there he got very agitated and was swimming by the top of the water in kind of a frantic way, which is not like his behavior at all. This was about 5 hours ago, now he is just in his usual spot in his betta log chilling out, but just acting a bit lethargic. He usually comes over to see me anytime I come to the tank. The 10 gallon definitely isn't ready for him, and I don't have a quarantine tank I can put him in, but believe me I am getting all the supplies to set one up for the future. This is brutal. 

As an update, 5 more cories have passed away since I added the trio of meds to the tank. The rest look like they will go before the end of the night. I am devastated and have been beating myself up over this. 

 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I am so very sorry for your losses, and sadly it may not be over. I know how bad it feels.

Medication can be really hard on our fish friends. Imagine how you might feel when you take a medication that doesn't interact with you well or has nasty side effects. It never feels good. Sudafed always makes me feel super loopy, I'd almost rather deal with the symptoms of a cold.

Cories, my understanding is they can be rather sensitive but per Aquarium Co-op has tested the products with them. They may have been, just like you said, sadly on the way out but weakened fish don't usually react well to medication. Keep an eye on everyone, pull the deceased ASAP. Test your ammonia levels often. If you have Prime or some other ammonia/nitrite neutralizer use it. If you do a water change before redosing meds only do small ones i.e. 20% or so. Keep stress to a minimum, consider turning down the lights. And hopefully more advice will be incoming. 🙂 

[lindabee53]

On 12/5/2021 at 9:16 PM, Goldie Blue said:

As an update, 5 more cories have passed away since I added the trio of meds to the tank. The rest look like they will go before the end of the night. I am devastated and have been beating myself up over this. 

 

Welcome.  I'm glad you found the forum, but sorry for the reason.

You need to not be beating yourself up.  I'm sure we've all learned a few lessons at the expense of our fish.  It's awful, but I think it makes us more knowledgeable and more careful.

[Colu]

Looking at how quickly they died I would suspect mycobacteria or Columnaris you don't always get symptoms with some stains of Columnaris these diseases often cause mass mortality in fish I what I would do is treat with kanaplex and furan2 or aquatics foods premium flake containing nitrofurazone and kanaplex following this treatment schedule as Columnaris is a gram negative bacterial infections and maracyn treats gram positive if you can't get the meds I have recommend treat with maracyn2 or aquatics foods premium flake containing oxytetracycline @Goldie Blue

Edited December 6, 2021 by Colu

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Furan2 and related medication has been pulled from the market so if you don't already have it the only thing to get is the medicated food with nitrofurazone. 

[Colu]

On 12/6/2021 at 4:33 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

Furan2 and related medication has been pulled from the market so if you don't already have it the only thing to get is the medicated food with nitrofurazone. 

It has been discontinued it gets confusing because i have seen it for sale resently theirs some furan2 out there it just look of the draw if you can find some in your area

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Colu totally is luck at this point. The medicated food you recommended was just about sold out when I found it on ebay (I'm sure they may be able to stock quickly but I haven't looked) I supposedly bought the last one at the time. Just wanted @Goldie Blue to know if it cannot be found at the LFS or normal channels that is why. 

[Goldie Blue]

@Colu @xXInkedPhoenixX I really appreciate your help and kindness! I am so glad I found this forum.

Let's assume I can find those 2 meds...since I already have the maracyn, paracleanse, and ich-x in the tank, what do I do? I am following the instructions from step 3 on the "how to treat sick fish" post here on the website.  

I am curious why it says to not feed your fish while treating, if anyone can explain I'd love to know! 

My next question is, if I decide to move Goldie Blue (my betta) into the 10 gallon I am cycling, do I then risk infecting that tank if he is coming from the infected tank? I assume he needs to be treated if he was in there.

I am beyond stressed out about all of this, been in tears on and off all day. It's a LOT to lose in such a short time, I failed my little friends and it feels awful. I can't thank you guys enough for the fast replies and help, even if it's too late, it's fantastic to find this resource for the future. 

 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Aww, it is very traumatic especially when we blame ourselves. Every fishkeeper goes through something like this. These are the kinds of things we never forget and can help others avoid it when possible. 

Most of the time I would not recommend changing medication in the middle of treatment- sometimes that causes more harm than good (like when your doctor prescribes you antibiotic you MUST finish the course). I may let @Colu speak to changing course. I can say if your fish have columnaris I have recently successfully treated with the suggested course (but I do have Furan2). Per Fritz's website Maracyn does treat columnaris. And again, this is going to also depend on your comfort with the process, only you can see what's going on with your tank. 

Until you get the new meds continue on your course. 

Not feeding fish during medication: If you're talking about the Aquarium Co-op page: I can't say FOR SURE, but my suspicion is that feeding fish creates waste which contributes to ammonia- the process suggested there is NOT to change water (which would remove ammonia). That is why they suggest if you DO do it on day 5 or 6 (because it's a week process, doing it towards the end, less chance of ammonia build up/issues). 

The betta, yes it's possible but if he has no symptoms maybe not. Is he going to be the only occupant if you moved him? I'd consider moving him could stress him more, he could potentially get sick or sicker if he already is OR it could save him. This is the sad thing, there's no real way of knowing. You might have to consider if you did some sort of acclimation process for example: putting him in a bowl with the 55g tank water and slowly over 15 minute increments put the 10g tank water in- acclimating him over a few hours until it's mostly or all 10 gallon water. Considering factors like what the 55 and 10 are testing, what the temp difference is, etc. Careful consideration must be made. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Goldie Blue]

@xXInkedPhoenixX My intention for the betta was to have him be the only one in the 10g, maybe a snail or two. I am just on thin ice right now with all of this, and it isn't fun. I hope he can pull through and I can get him into his new tank, he will be so much happier in there. He is such an amazing fish, so chill, not aggressive, very friendly. I just can't get the flow in the 55g down to where he can swim easily without it affecting other things. 

That makes sense now about the feedings while on the Aquarium Co-Op trio course of treatment, didn't think about the ammonia spikes. Thank you for the answer!

I know I have seen the Kanaplex in a few of my local stores, but I will have to check for the Furan-2. I suspect it's a good idea to just have some of this on hand in case of emergencies. Both of the flake/food meds are in stock on eBay...should I buy them?

I have so many other questions for down the line once we either beat this, or all my fish die, but for now I will wait and see and also see what @Colu thinks. Man, this is stressful! 😬

Edited December 6, 2021 by Goldie Blue
added eBay update

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

One of the things I learned when starting the hobby "for real" again was having a fishy first aid kit. Having the meds ON HAND makes a very stressful situation waaaay less stressful. When I got my fish for my 20 and they then proceeded to break out with Ich I was so happy to have already had the treatment for it. It still sucked, it was still not fun, but I didn't have to sit chewing my nails waiting for an amazon shipment or sitting outside a store waiting for it to open. Because let's face it- emergencies never happen at 2 on a Monday. It's always midnight on a sunday holiday. It's an investment $$ wise but worth its weight in gold. 

Well good to know about your betta- then if you decided to move him he'd be the only occupant to worry about for now and you could treat the tank but only for whatever specific he might have. The only things you have to worry about when treating tanks is whether it will negatively affect your scaless fish (like corycats) or inverts (like snails or shrimp). The decision to move him or not is entirely up to you my friend. 

[Colu]

On 12/6/2021 at 6:09 AM, Goldie Blue said:

Let's assume I can find those 2 meds...since I already have the maracyn, paracleanse, and ich-x in the tank,

If you can get meds I recommended I would do water changes and add active carbon to remove the meds maracyn does say it treats Columnaris in my experience it not very effective you need some stronger like kanaplex and nitrofurazone medication like furan2 or aquatics foods premium flake containing nitrofurazone together with the kanaplex their make more. Broad spectrum antibiotic for the best chance of success 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Colu

[Gator]

@Goldie Blue; The photo you enclosed of your dead fish shows me that your fish was a female and she died because she was egg-bound, and not from a disease, it's sad, but it happens to all of us at one time or another.

Let's discuss your Betta first. A 10 G tank is perfect for a Betta, raise the temps of all of your tanks to no more than 85 degrees. Bettas and all of our tropical fish originally came from waters that are about this temp, having your water temps at this temp will save you a bundle of money on fish meds. 

A pH of 8.0 is good for Guppies, other livebearers, and African cichlids, and the temp for these fish is still about 85 degrees. 

Bettas originally came from SE Asia, the water temps are very warm, very soft, and very acidic, all of which are easy to duplicate in the home aquarium. I've already mentioned raising your water temps, and from here on out, I'm presuming that you have a HOB filter on your 10 G and a canister filter on your 55 G tank. 

To make the water softer and more acidic in either filter means adding a teaspoon of Fluval peat pellets into a mesh bag and finding a place in your HOB filter that is in the flow of water, but where the tie strings of the mesh bag doesn't get caught in the impeller mechanism. If you do have a canister filter for your 55 G tank, place 2 tablespoons of the Fluval peat pellets in a mesh bag and place that mesh bag between the layers of filter foam.    

Your water may or may not turn yellow, your water may even turn a clear brown, if it does, it's no cause for alarm, you've just created a blackwater environment for your fish, that's what they're used to, and that's what they're happiest in.

By the way, if you should ever choose to breed Bettas, they'll breed easiest at the high temps I recommend and blackwater. 

Now that you've raised the water temps, you're going to notice that fish diseases pretty much go away on their own, but like @xXInkedPhoenixX, I keep fish meds on hand just in case, it's better to have them and not need them than to need them and not have them. I keep API Fungus Cure, API E. M. Erythromycin, API General Cure, and Jungle Ich Clear on hand at all times, but since raising my water temps (Mine are actually 84.7), I haven't had to use any of them in a very long time.

I've never used Ich-X and I never will, Ich-X costs too much and I would have to use almost the whole bottle just to treat once, not worth the price.

When you buy new fish and you're letting the bag float for 30 min to equalize the water temps between the water in the bag and your tank water, watch your new fish while they're still in the bag. You'll notice that as the water temp in the bag gets closer to the temp they like, they'll become more active in the bag. 

What I do after 30 min is to use a 0ne pint Mason jar, I fill it with enough water from the bag so that it floats upright in my tank. I'll catch one or two of the fish out of the bag and place them in the jar. I'll place my fingers over the mouth of the jar so that I can pour half of the water into my tank without the fish either jumping or swimming out and then I'll refill the jar to the point that it floats upright again. I'll let it float for 15 min and then repeat the process two more times with 15 min intervals between each before I release the fish. I do this to acclimate the fish to my water, so they're not subjected to stress or shock. To make it easier for my new arrivals, I'll feed them because I know that my LFS does not feed their fish from time of arrival and time of sale, as if the fish haven't been through enough stress from transportation.

When I buy new fish from my LFS, I specify no more than 2 fish to a bag, I'd rather they don't use all of the available oxygen or build up too much ammonia in the water before I got them home, which has happened. I don't live very far from my LFS, but I may have other places to go before I go home.

From what you've said about your LFS, you can ask them one question that will tell you if they're any good or knowledgeable. tell them you want to set up a 10 G tank and then ask, "How many Goldfish you can put in a 10 G tank?" Any number higher than zero is the wrong answer, find another LFS, but ask the new LFS the same question.

You may be new at fishkeeping, but you're smart, you ask questions, and the only stupid question is the one you didn't ask.

Sincerely

Gator

[Patrick_G]

I have some ideas on your Betta if you want to get him into his new tank ASAP. You can take some cycled media from your canister filter and add it to the filter you have for the 10 gallon. The cycled media will instantly be able to process Ammonia and Nitrite. It won’t take much to handle the waste load from one Betta in a tank that size. Of course it’s possible that you might also introduce whatever microbes are causing your fish to get sick. If that’s a concern then you can also add the Betta to the 10 gallon as is and do more frequent water changes until the cycle catches up. I think it’s a matter of deciding which option will cause him the least harm. 

[Gator]

@Goldie Blue; I agree with @Patrick_G on how to cycle your HOB the quickest way possible. You can also remove your activated carbon permanently, you don't need it, your tanks aren't going to smell bad without it.

Google how to supercharge your filter.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Gator
I wanted to add more info.

[Goldie Blue]

I really cannot thank all of you enough for all the advice and support. I appreciate that you guys are so welcoming and patient!

Update: this morning the last of my 12 pygmy cories died. So now it's 7 white cloud minnows, 1 male enlder guppy, my pleco, and my sweet betta boy left. @Gator with what you mentioned earlier about the temp, is it okay to boost it up for what is left in the tank? And, do you do it slowly over time, or just crank it up all at once?

About the dead fish, when you say she was egg bound, was there something I could have or should have done for her? I noticed she was kind of big in the belly, and there is another one in there the same way. 

I have a sponge filter in the tank I intended to move my betta into, which has been running about a week now. But it's no issue to buy something else if you guys think it's better for him, as I am going to a local store to try to find the Kanaplex and the other meds you mentioned you always have on hand here in a bit anyway. I was just concerned about how fast the current is in my 55g from my canister filter, I can tell he really doesn't like it and wanted something more gentle for him. 

@Patrick_G if I decide to go the route of adding media from the old tank, and I stay with my sponge filter, how would I do that from a canister filter? Would I cut a piece of the white pad from the canister and tuck it into the sponge filter somewhere?

@Colu The nitrofurazone flakes are apparently sold out this morning, I should have grabbed them last night. I know I can get the Kanaplex locally but is there an alternative to the Furan-2 and these flakes if I can't find either? I am almost certain the cories were all infected, because they not only shared the same wafer as the visibly sick one, they were nibbling at him after he died 😟 and now all of them are dead. The water in the tank is kind of cloudy this morning, but the fish that are alive are looking active. My betta is still acting a bit off, not his usual self. He won't come out of his log to greet me and seems spooked. If I can't get the flakes or furan-2,  shall I just keep on course with the medicating trio that is in there?

Again, thank you all so much.

 

 

[Colu]

If you have  a local Petco I think they sell jungal fungas clear fizz tabs containing nitrofurazone you can use with kanaplex the med trio is a proventive treatment for an active infection you do full course of treatment not just on dose of each

Edited December 6, 2021 by Colu

[Goldie Blue]

@Colu Ohhhh, okay...I thought the med trio was for an active infection as well. Good thing you clarified that. Yes, I have a local PetCo, so I will go there and look. The water got SUPER cloudy in just the last hour, so I am going to test the water and probably do a water change and add the carbon in it, as I don't have more of the Maracyn to add anyway, it was only an 8 pack and I initially thought it was just the one dose and soak method. Oooof this is stressful and tricky business lol! 

[Colu]

Good luck I hope it works out and you save your Betta 

[Goldie Blue]

@Colu one more thing, how long does it take for the carbon to remove medicine? I just did a water change and added the carbon how long should I wait to add the new meds? Thank you!

[Colu]

On 12/6/2021 at 7:38 PM, Goldie Blue said:

@Colu one more thing, how long does it take for the carbon to remove medicine? I just did a water change and added the carbon how long should I wait to add the new meds? Thank you!

It will take 24hr  for the carbon to remove the meds

[Macobe]

You usually can buy Jungle fungus clear fizz tabs at Walmart. $3-4 for 8 tabs. It is rated pretty high on Amazon. I have used this before on my fish (actually just lately and it worked well.) Lost one albino catfish before medicating them and it saved my very pale transparent second one. Best of luck

[Streetwise]

I’m sorry for your troubles. You have gotten a lot of good treatment advice.

White Clouds are very hardy, but my research shows a top recommended temperature as 72F. I keep mine in an unheated aquarium, and they were in tubs down to the 50s, and can live under ice. You may want to consider this in relation to which fish go in which tanks.