Help with auto water changes please

[Ron1955]

Hi all,

I’m looking to set up automatic water changes and having a bit of trouble getting any information or anyone to help in Australia. I’ve spoken to ten plumbers who look at me like I’m talking another language so would love your feedback and direction please 

 

I have 5 separate sumped systems I want to change to auto systems where the water will empty straight into the sewer.

The total volume is 6000 litres (1585 gallons) and I want to change 20-25% a day with fresh water. 
 

I am thinking the following:

A temperature controller/mixer from the gas hot water system to eventually hit the tanks at 26 degrees Celsius (79 Fahrenheit). Some tanks like hotter so I’ll run heaters in them with Inkbirds. 
 

The water will go through the temp controller/mixer to a filter to take out chlorine and any heavy metals then to a sump. I’m thinking a large stackable koi sump or similar so it won’t take up too much room & I can add more tanks.

The water will then go into the individual tanks via irrigation fittings with solenoids? The tanks are pre-drilled with 32mm fittings which I’ll connect a pipe from each system to meet up and hit the sewer via gravity.

Any advice/tips would be appreciated and if anyone knows someone that stocks this or even better can install in Australia please let me know 

 

Thank you 

Ron

[MoshJosh]

My thoughts:

I would probably just connect all the tanks to one central sump and simply change 25% of total water volume (about 396 gallon) daily. Would have the incoming fresh water go directly into the sump (near the "outlet" going to the tanks) and the outgoing water coming from the sump as well (near the "inlet" where the water is returning from the tanks). I would have the water change slowly so that the ambient temperature/heater (placed in the sump) could compensate.

 

Obviously this assumes all your tanks are running on the same parameter. It also means that if one tank gets a parasite/illness then all the tanks are exposed.

 

These are just my initial thoughts. Keep in mind I don't personally have an auto water change system/nor have I ever had one. 

[Colu]

You can use  carbon block and sediment filter to remove chorine  before it goes back in to your tanks

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Colu

[Ron1955]

Thank you for the replies. 
That filter is definitely one thing I’ll need. I’ll have fish at different temperature and yes would prefer them not to be connected as some fish are riskier to disease, some quite expensive/rare and some very messy compared to others. 
I’ve had them in separate sumped symptoms to minimize this but the maintenance is too time consuming and difficult with my poor health so I’d like it all automatic 

[Dwayne Brown]

I'm no expert but you could try running a few different sumps based on water condition. Maybe one for cold water, one for hot, one for rare tropical... 

[Ron1955]

Thank you Dwayne. That’s what I currently have but am just looking to make it all automatic. I have a rough idea in my head but just need some direction and advice products 

[Patrick_G]

@Ron1955 The system you have in mind sounds like it’ll work fine. I’d search through @Cory’s YouTube videos. He’s gone in depth on installing several auto change systems. 

[OnlyGenusCaps]

Hi @Ron1955.  I love AWC systems!  Anyone suffering from MTS should be aiming for installing them as they make care vastly easier!  Sounds like you are an experienced keeper, so I'll spare you all the intro stuff.

Sounds like you are running from municipal water, and are therefor worried about Cl.  For the volumes of water you are talking about I'd run a central C tank.  I have one and I'm on a well.  They work great and only need replacing every 2-5 years depending on size vs. usage.  If you get weird looks from plumbers, just tell them you are improving the "taste" of the water.  They are installed all the time for that.

Alright, chlorine is dealt with.  You are changing into sumps, so the next thing is to think about where the water needs to go.  I am assuming these are standard "below tank" sumps.  If they are overhead, level, or some other arrangement, that will change the conversation.  In a sump system, everything settles to the filter and the drain must go in the sump.  That's there you need your overflow, or pump to drain, not the tank.  I trust you can figure out how to get the water leaving the sump to a drain in your situation.  There are a few ways of doing the drain hook-up within the sump though.  Trade-offs of course, and it will depend on the type of sumps you have.  Do you have multi-compartment sumps?  Single compartment with permeable media separating them sections?  More sump details will help in determining the type of drain setup you will want to use.  Some calculations might be necessary as we move forward.

For input, I don't worry about heating the incoming water, nor do I need to treat it, i.e. use an RO system because I have made the active decision to only keep fish that can thrive in my well water conditions.  That said, I understand why others make other decisions.  I don't heat my incoming water because I don't do as large of changes as you do.  May I ask why you want to change so much water on a daily basis? 

Regardless, it is doable.  Let's start with the simplest scenario, and say you are able to direct fill the tanks from the source water (post C tank treatment).  In that case the easiest means I have found is to use irrigation timers and fittings for drip systems.  I simply do not attache the drip emitters, and thus get fairly fast flow into the tanks.  You can even put on drip emitter ball valves at the drip line size, or for the larger tubing to determine the flow to various different sized tanks.  These do go directly into the tanks, though I like when I can have them add the water behind a matten filter or other place where there is mixing before it gets to the inhabitants.  Modifications for pre-warming and RO use are pretty similar actually, but we can cover those if that is really what you need.

If this is a useful starting place, let me know and I'll be happy to continue on with you. 

[Ron1955]

On 11/28/2021 at 12:11 PM, Patrick_G said:

@Ron1955 The system you have in mind sounds like it’ll work fine. I’d search through @Cory’s YouTube videos. He’s gone in depth on installing several auto change systems. 

Thanks Patrick. I’ve watched a few of the videos and hope I can source parts here in Australia because it’s been impossible 

[Ron1955]

On 11/28/2021 at 12:55 PM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

Hi @Ron1955.  I love AWC systems!  Anyone suffering from MTS should be aiming for installing them as they make care vastly easier!  Sounds like you are an experienced keeper, so I'll spare you all the intro stuff.

Sounds like you are running from municipal water, and are therefor worried about Cl.  For the volumes of water you are talking about I'd run a central C tank.  I have one and I'm on a well.  They work great and only need replacing every 2-5 years depending on size vs. usage.  If you get weird looks from plumbers, just tell them you are improving the "taste" of the water.  They are installed all the time for that.

Alright, chlorine is dealt with.  You are changing into sumps, so the next thing is to think about where the water needs to go.  I am assuming these are standard "below tank" sumps.  If they are overhead, level, or some other arrangement, that will change the conversation.  In a sump system, everything settles to the filter and the drain must go in the sump.  That's there you need your overflow, or pump to drain, not the tank.  I trust you can figure out how to get the water leaving the sump to a drain in your situation.  There are a few ways of doing the drain hook-up within the sump though.  Trade-offs of course, and it will depend on the type of sumps you have.  Do you have multi-compartment sumps?  Single compartment with permeable media separating them sections?  More sump details will help in determining the type of drain setup you will want to use.  Some calculations might be necessary as we move forward.

For input, I don't worry about heating the incoming water, nor do I need to treat it, i.e. use an RO system because I have made the active decision to only keep fish that can thrive in my well water conditions.  That said, I understand why others make other decisions.  I don't heat my incoming water because I don't do as large of changes as you do.  May I ask why you want to change so much water on a daily basis? 

Regardless, it is doable.  Let's start with the simplest scenario, and say you are able to direct fill the tanks from the source water (post C tank treatment).  In that case the easiest means I have found is to use irrigation timers and fittings for drip systems.  I simply do not attache the drip emitters, and thus get fairly fast flow into the tanks.  You can even put on drip emitter ball valves at the drip line size, or for the larger tubing to determine the flow to various different sized tanks.  These do go directly into the tanks, though I like when I can have them add the water behind a matten filter or other place where there is mixing before it gets to the inhabitants.  Modifications for pre-warming and RO use are pretty similar actually, but we can cover those if that is really what you need.

If this is a useful starting place, let me know and I'll be happy to continue on with you. 

Thanks for such a great and detailed reply!

Excellent, I’ve got you on the chlorine. I’ve tried my fish on RO but unless I re-mineralize they all seem to die off. 

My current sumps are multi compartment and underneath the tanks on foam sheets on a concrete slab. That’s one of the reasons I’m thinking of getting rid of the sumps as there is no angle for gravity to remove waste water unless I rip up the whole slab and cut up my driveway.

I was thinking if I remove the sumps the water will leave the drilled tanks and travel via gravity to the sewer in large pipes.

I keep catfish which are messy and seem to be better with large water volumes being removed. What percentage would you recommend?

I’ve finally found a store in Australia that replied to me and may be able to help with parts. They recommended the following. What do you think? Thanks so much again  

You may need a tempering valve   : https://www.brisbaneplumbinganddrainage.com.au/plumber-blog/difference-between-tmv-and-tempering-valve/

We can supply a flush solenoid valve which can be programmed to go off at intervals -  say 5 minutes on  24 hours  off . We will also soon stock  24-hour timer flush valves.
https://pacificwater.com.au/product/automatic-flush-valve/

and control flow rate: flow meter
https://pacificwater.com.au/product/digiflow-8000t-flow-sensor/

combination of time and flow rate will give you the required volume
then in-line carbon filter  for chlorine removal

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 11/28/2021 at 5:43 AM, Ron1955 said:

Thanks for such a great and detailed reply!

No worries.  I'm more than happy to help; assuming anything I say is of any use of course.  😆  Glad you found someone willing to work with you on building out the system! 

In terms of mixing valves, I like to look at things in terms of risk.  If you are going to go with adding hot water to tank via any form, then I see failure of that regulation as a fairly high risk.  What temperature does your tap come in at?  You are in Oz, so I can't imagine it's too cold.  Where I am, my well water comes in at 5.5°C year round, and it's not an issue.

That said, I get why you might want to have the incoming water come in at temperature.  If you go that route, I'd say you should be budgeting for a TMV and not a Tempering Valve.  The risk of failure on a tempering valve is relatively higher.  Indeed it is why some areas here in the States won't allow these to be used in places like nurseries and pre-schools; kids could get burned.  From the risk evaluation standpoint, I would recommend you will want to budget for a TMV, or forego the mixing in-line.  If you are still concerned we could talk about heating a tank that is kept filled, as that is pretty low risk as well, but for that you need an external pump because you are no longer using municipal pressure. 

I think I understand a bit better now.  Thanks for explain it again for me!  Sounds like you don't have a floor drain.  I understand not wanting to lift water.  Always risky.  ∴You are hoping to remove the sumps as part of the process.  Then when the AWC adds water to the tank, it will flow out the old overflow that used to go to the sump.  If I am off on this, let me know.

I can see the appeal of this approach for sure.  You mention you are keeping some variety of Siluriformes and they are messy.  So may I ask, with the sumps removed where will your bioreaction for nitrification be moved to, and will you add new mechanical filtration (assuming here you have mechanical included in your sumps currently)?  I'd say you know your bioload issues more than I do, and no amount of fresh clean water will hurt the fish.  That said, when most people talk about their weekly water changes, they are doing between 10%-25% a week.  I know some folks with pretty high bioloads and they do 50%-70% a week, but that seems more on the extreme end.  So, if you do 10% daily, you are doing ~70% a week (there are inefficiencies with AWCs and daily changes because of mixing, but we'll ballpark it).  That still puts you on a heavier water change end.  If you bump it up to 15%, you are changing over 100% of the tank volume each week.  I'm just suggesting that the volumes you are taking about might not be necessary.  I find sometimes people get carried away with the power of AWC and want to go really extreme with their water changes, but it's not really necessary in most cases.

I think I covered most of it.  If I missed something, let me know.  More questions, ask away.  Please do update us here on the project and the process.  I'd love to see what you are up to and how it all works out. 

 

[Ron1955]

Thanks again. I spoke to someone else with experience building these and now I’m even more confused haha.

I’m not thinking I’ll heat the room via air conditioning and heat the water in the sump before it hits the tanks. That will also minimize risk of cooking my fish.

 

You were exactly right about no floor drain and why I am going to remove the sumps. I am currently doing over 75% water changes for the plecos once a week and it’s just not enough. I’ll run the new tanks on sponge filters but think with the amount of fresh water being added and the fact I’ll also get a large koi sump or similar they’ll be fine with that bioload.

I’m having trouble finding the right sump. Ideally it will be a large vertical sump to maximum the space I have. I’ve been told they exist but finding them in australia seems difficult 

Talk soon 🙂

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 11/29/2021 at 11:26 PM, Ron1955 said:

I spoke to someone else with experience building these and now I’m even more confused haha.

Not surprised.  No two are the same.  Plus, you know what they say about opinions...  🤭

On 11/29/2021 at 11:26 PM, Ron1955 said:

heat the water in the sump before it hits the tanks

Seems like a safe call.  I think I'd go that route as well in your position.

On 11/29/2021 at 11:26 PM, Ron1955 said:

I’m having trouble finding the right sump. Ideally it will be a large vertical sump to maximum the space I have. I’ve been told they exist but finding them in australia seems difficult

Just for my own clarity and understanding, by "sump" here are you referring to the tank you'll need to hold and heat the water you will use to change in the tanks?  Or are you now planning on keeping over head sump filters?  If you are just looking for tanks, I've found RV water tanks to be economical (I believe they are called caravans down there as opposed to our RV or recreational vehicle). 

Good luck!  Looking forward to seeing how this all shakes out.

[Ron1955]

Thank you. I’m looking for something like a koi sump on the ground where the filtered water will pass through and heat the water prior to filling the tanks with the irrigation system. The way the room is set up and the fact I won’t be recycling the water I don’t need anything massive but still big enough to do the job without taking up too much room