New set up: Angel or little fish in first?

[CalmedByFish]

I'm about ready to put my angel back into his big tank. (After moving.) But I've also been wanting to have endlers and platies in that tank. 

Previously, when I added them to "his" tank, he picked on them, killing many. 

What if I instead let the little livebearers get comfortable in the tank, then add the angel several days later? Might that prevent him from thinking the tank is his domain, and so prevent him from being as aggressive? 

[Colu]

Endlers are always going to be a snack for adult angelfish weather you add them Frist or second 

[CalmedByFish]

On 11/23/2021 at 10:37 PM, Colu said:

Endlers are always going to be a snack for adult angelfish weather you add them Frist or second 

Aagh. Grumble grumble.

Okay, how about adult dwarf platies? Males are 1", females 1.5", and all are a chubby shape. What do you think?

Edited to add: I have one male platy that's so obsessed with gettin' busy, I can't even let him share a tank with the other males. I might could put him in with the angel, and stand there watching with a net in hand in case he (or the angel 🙄) needs rescued. Maybe he could be a test fish.

Edited November 24, 2021 by CalmedByFish

[Guppysnail]

Always add fish in the order of aggression.  Least aggressive first most territorial/aggressive last. Endlers will be snacks unfortunately. Young plates will but if your angel is not super aggressive they should leave adults alone “should?”

[CalmedByFish]

On 11/24/2021 at 8:37 AM, Guppysnail said:

Always add fish in the order of aggression.  Least aggressive first most territorial/aggressive last. Endlers will be snacks unfortunately. Young plates will but if your angel is not super aggressive they should leave adults alone “should?”

So maybe my idea above of using that one male platy ("Horndog") as a test fish might be worth trying?

[Guppysnail]

I have mixed thoughts on that. My first thought was yes so only one is in danger. My second thought is no because more movement distracts and keeps aggression away from one individual. The actual thought was about zebras and their stripes making it hard for lions etc to target one. If there is one plate it may spry the angel to show dominance and claim the tank. In other words 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️ I have no real solid answer

[KaitieG]

I know my angels eat a full grown male guppy here and there and ALL the fry.  The smaller fish were there first.  I think you'd very likely be fine with full size platies, and they don't look twice at my swordtails or corys if that's worth anything.

[Brandon p]

can be done but the only way i seen work is if you have very small angelfish (smaller than dime) and large platies. Chances of it working are small> if you are going to do this have lots of floating plant that grow long root(2"- 4") i woud use some thing like Frogbit. Also have some rooted plants so they can find places to hide like Java Fern Windelovor Bacopa Caroliniana. there are probably better one @Guppysnailwould know better. I doesn't say how big the tank is i would buy as many of the fish you want to try to keep with the angelfish and add at minimum add 30 of those and 50 if possible. it happen to me when I have my to platies in there. i normally would buy 25 feeders endlers and platies, I got 50 one time because I was going to be away. they are still there. ill post a pic and many people here have seen.

[Torrey]

On 11/23/2021 at 9:19 PM, CalmedByFish said:

I'm about ready to put my angel back into his big tank. (After moving.) But I've also been wanting to have endlers and platies in that tank. 

Previously, when I added them to "his" tank, he picked on them, killing many. 

What if I instead let the little livebearers get comfortable in the tank, then add the angel several days later? Might that prevent him from thinking the tank is his domain, and so prevent him from being as aggressive? 

It will work as long as the tank is heavily, *heavily* planted.

If you don't have enough plants yet for dense planting, put your angel in and grow some of the plants in pots. As soon as you have enough for a dense jungle area, remove the angel (I would put him in a QT for a week) and rearrange the tank to exactly the way you want it. Make sure the plants are dense enough to provide the livebearers good coverage. 

Add the livebearers, and give them at least a week to settle in.

Then return the angelfish.

You may still lose some of your livebearers, a cichlid will always be a cichlid, even pretty angels. 

[CalmedByFish]

On 11/26/2021 at 1:32 AM, Torrey said:

It will work as long as the tank is heavily, *heavily* planted.

If you don't have enough plants yet for dense planting, put your angel in and grow some of the plants in pots. As soon as you have enough for a dense jungle area, remove the angel (I would put him in a QT for a week) and rearrange the tank to exactly the way you want it. Make sure the plants are dense enough to provide the livebearers good coverage. 

Add the livebearers, and give them at least a week to settle in.

Then return the angelfish.

You may still lose some of your livebearers, a cichlid will always be a cichlid, even pretty angels. 

I'd love to have the tank jam-packed with plants. Even after spending about $145 in the last week for more plants and better substrate, I think my tallest plant will currently come up halfway between the substrate and water surface, and a high percentage of the plants' square feet of coverage will just be vallisneria, which isn't good for hiding behind. I'd love to strategically spend about another $200 on plants to get the tank crammed, but simply can't. 

I think I'll start with the idea of trying fully grown dwarf platies with the angel, since they're my largest fish other than him. (Only 6 are fully grown though.)

I could swear @Daniel was successfully keeping angels with adult endlers in a tank that wasn't packed with plants, so I don't really know what is and isn't possible for my specific angel. He's about 4 years old (middle-aged?), and has developed a "get off my lawn" attitude. 

[Torrey]

On 11/26/2021 at 1:17 AM, CalmedByFish said:

I'd love to have the tank jam-packed with plants. Even after spending about $145 in the last week for more plants and better substrate, I think my tallest plant will currently come up halfway between the substrate and water surface, and a high percentage of the plants' square feet of coverage will just be vallisneria, which isn't good for hiding behind. I'd love to strategically spend about another $200 on plants to get the tank crammed, but simply can't. 

I think I'll start with the idea of trying fully grown dwarf platies with the angel, since they're my largest fish other than him. (Only 6 are fully grown though.)

I could swear @Daniel was successfully keeping angels with adult endlers in a tank that wasn't packed with plants, so I don't really know what is and isn't possible for my specific angel. He's about 4 years old (middle-aged?), and has developed a "get off my lawn" attitude. 

I buy strategically, and use grow out tanks to be able to heavily fertilize with out worrying about over fertilizing and harming livestock. Pearlweed is fabulous for rapid growth and great hiding.

You don't necessarily need to have plants to the top of the tank. Frogbit and water lettuce have awesome root systems. On the floor area, plant densely and endlers will hide in the plant clumps as long as each clump is thick enough. Leave unplanted areas for the angel to be able to swim easily. 

How big is his big tank again?

[I wish we hadn't lost everything in our house fire, I would love to share pictures of old set ups]

In a 4' 75 gallon tank, I had planted the back wall with val, I want to say some swords, and cabomba, to a 6" depth. In front of those plants, I had 4 "triangles" of plantings: one on each end of taller stem plants that grew to the top of the tank. 

The next two "triangles" pushed from the back toward the front with a variety of bushier plants, and I allowed a line down the middle of the triangle to grow almost to the top of the tank. 

This configuration essentially broke the tank up into 3 "rooms" that had about 12" in from wall to wall. (This approach also works for betta sororities).

Smaller fish would make it to a different room before an angel could make it through a "wall"

Similar configurations using hardscape to help delineate different areas allows small fish densely planted areas to hide, and creates easily defendable territory for the angels.

[CalmedByFish]

@Torrey That's a great idea using high-fert plant grow out tanks for plants, and making "rooms" in the fish tank. I actually think I could do that!

The floor space inside the tank is 33x13." 29 gallons. (And yeah, most people say angels need bigger. When mine was in a 4 foot tank, he just chose a corner and parked. About twice per day, he'd slowly swim the length of the tank, then go park again. Haha.)

Sorry about that house fire.  

[Torrey]

On 11/26/2021 at 10:58 AM, CalmedByFish said:

@Torrey That's a great idea using high-fert plant grow out tanks for plants, and making "rooms" in the fish tank. I actually think I could do that!

The floor space inside the tank is 33x13." 29 gallons. (And yeah, most people say angels need bigger. When mine was in a 4 foot tank, he just chose a corner and parked. About twice per day, he'd slowly swim the length of the tank, then go park again. Haha.)

Sorry about that house fire.  

General rule of thumb is 11 gallons per angel, and start out with at least 6 to identify a breeding pair.

Just one in a 29 gallon is more than sufficient, and making rooms so everyone can escape everyone else creates get away routes and tends to increase activity. I am more of an @eatyourpeas type of aquarist: I like to recreate as close to natural habitats as possible. 

My spouse appreciates the aesthetics, I am not allowed to talk about the rules of nature as they play out in the tank, though.

And my spouse's 4' is not allowed to have any fish who would be so uncouth as to eat a baby in front of them 😅

[CalmedByFish]

On 11/26/2021 at 1:29 PM, Torrey said:

And my spouse's 4' is not allowed to have any fish who would be so uncouth as to eat a baby in front of them 😅

You married up. 😂

I get it though. I couldn't bear the thought of any of my baby fish getting eaten, until the day I read the back of the fish food container, and realized that by buying it, I was just hiring the fish version of hitmen. That was the day my thinking turned a corner, but I DO still think it's a bummer.