Three Med Trio killing fish.

[Sci]

Hey guys. New here, but not new to keeping fish. Big time follower of aquarium Co-op.

Got a cycled 36 gallon bowfront and got some new fish to put in with my existing fish. I do not have a quarantine tank as I just don't have the supplies and space. First time using the 3 med Trio and Out of the new fish I added almost all of them died in the first 24 hours of administering medication... I have never had this happen before! Added 2 blue rams, 4 ottos, and two hillstream loaches. 1 otto died, both loaches and 1 ram died. The other ram currently is gasping at the top of the tank. No fish was visibly sick but I know almost all of them have internal parasites as them come from tanks at the LFS. Figured the trio was a good idea as these are the fist new fish I have added in a long time.

0 ammonia

0 Nitrites

5 Nitrate.

water turned cloudy and I am told this is normal.

 

All of my fish that were already in the tank are acting normal and fine. So I am wondering if fish form the LFS are (to be expected) just generally unhealthy and the shock of a new tank and the meds done them in? Should I ride out the treatment or abandon it to prevent further deaths? I am a little disheartened here as I followed the directions exactly  and have never had meds in which I had hope would help, In fact, kill most of my new fish...

[Ken]

On 11/15/2021 at 4:21 PM, Sci said:

All of my fish that were already in the tank are acting normal and fine.

In my mind that pretty much eliminates the Med Trio as the killer.

On 11/15/2021 at 4:21 PM, Sci said:

Should I ride out the treatment or abandon it to prevent further deaths?

I would ride it out, whatever killed those new fish is in the tank now.

After the Med Trio period is over I'd watch like a hawk for any symptoms of what it was.

I lost a tankful really pretty and expensive fish that way once. I don't skip quarantine, or now that I know about it, the Med Trio... ever. 

[Colu]

I would add an extra air stone if their gasping at The surface it could have been osmotic shock that killed your new fish if your water parameters are different from lfs how did you acclimate them 

[Patrick_G]

Wow that’s rough! I’d definitely keep up with the meds. I’m also wondering what temperature you run your tank at? I notice you have fish that don’t have any overlap in their temperature ranges. I mean the Rams and Hillstream Loaches. I’m not saying that’s what killed them but it might not be ideal. 

[Sci]

Temps are 78. The loaches were in my aquarium for treatment then they were getting moved to another aquarium with cooler water and celestial danios.

On 11/15/2021 at 4:26 PM, Colu said:

I would add an extra air stone if their gasping at The surface it could have been osmotic shock that killed your new fish if your water parameters are different from lfs how did you acclimate them 

Already had a stone. They were acclimated in the bag by floating and adding water. I had them for a few days and they were acting normal and eating. It was not until I added the trio that they died. And I found the other Ram this morning. Dead. 😣

[Colu]

Then Maybe it was a reaction to the medication

[OnlyGenusCaps]

I am sorry to hear of your losses @Sci. That's never easy.  I don't have absolute answers, but I thought I would relate some observations I've had using the MedTrio.

I am a cautious medicater.  I don't like to use meds when not necessary.  That said, with a couple of shipments of fish I have gotten, I've noticed that when the fish start showing signs of decline, especially bacterial infections, and I medicate, the meds seem to expedite the decline of those fish that were likely on their way out anyhow.  It's my guess that meds are stressful to anything in the tank.  If you think about it, we are adding compounds that are meant to be highly toxic to the targeted organisms, and less toxic to the critters we want to treat.  For a fish already under stress, that can mean the treatment is the poison.  I've started to look at meds as a means to prevent spread of a disease to currently healthy fish and not as a means to cure those fish that are already quite sick. 

In your tank, the complete survival of the prior residents, but loss of the new, stressed, and parasite carrying fish could be a pattern that would be created by the process I've described.  The incoming fish may have been stressed enough already that there was little you could do.  Whereas, your current healthy stock could shrug off the meds.  At least by adding the meds you may have prevented the spread of the parasites to the prior residents of the tank. 

This is also why I absolutely QT anything coming in.  I know you said you don't have the space, and I get that.  I've even had to use a translucent Sterilite tote and a squeeze from an established filter before for the same reason.  Sure, the tote is not ideal, especially because it is not clear enough to spot any early signs of disease, but if you view QT and meds as a screening process to save your current stock from the incoming critters, that becomes less important. 

This is not meant in any way to be disparaging or to chastise you.  I was just hoping to share a bit of a different view of how to think of meds: a stress screen that takes out the gonners and prevents what is killing them from spreading to new fish.  It sounds to me like you did everything you could, and it turned out badly.  Again, I am sorry that happens to you, and your fish.

[Sci]

@OnlyGenusCaps

Thank you for the good information. I understand the importance of quarantining new fish I just did not have the means. I would believe it comes down to and already stressed and diseased animal and then piling on medication that killed them. 

So for the future if I were to purchase new fish and quarantine them do I NOT medicate unless they show signs of illness? How long should they be in a quarantine tank before I medicate? It does not seem right to just expect new fish to die once I medicate them with this holy grail med trio. Because that is what pretty much happened. Unless I have the worst luck in the world and happened to pick the 4 fish out of 1000 that had a death sentence. 

[eatyourpeas]

Sorry you lost your fish. 😔

One lesson I have learned is not to rush and buy fish unless I can quarantine them. Totes work great if you do not have a QT.

I just bought some CPDs and Lampeye killifish and lost 3 out of the bags. They did not touch the tanks at the LFS, since I picked them up as soon as they arrived. Watching them carefully I noticed signs of stress and four more fish with clamped fins and not eating, so at that point I medicated them. They seem to be better now, and no deaths. The littlest ones still have clamped caudals, but at least they are eating.

It is always tricky to figure out when to intervene, but unless there are signs, I do not medicate until I have to. Meds stress them, I am convinced.

Edited November 16, 2021 by eatyourpeas

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 11/16/2021 at 4:11 PM, Sci said:

I understand the importance of quarantining new fish

I have no doubt that is true.  It was very clear that was the case, and I sincerely apologize if I made it sound otherwise.

On 11/16/2021 at 4:11 PM, Sci said:

So for the future if I were to purchase new fish and quarantine them do I NOT medicate unless they show signs of illness? How long should they be in a quarantine tank before I medicate?

Again, I can offer no certainty.  When I bring in fish from other hobbyists I QT with no meds.  So far, no losses that way.  When fish come from other sources, I now feed a day first, unless things look amiss immediately, then start meds.  I can only offer my rational, and I can't tell you I am in some absolute right.

I feed first in hopes of getting them stronger after travel, and to assess their condition (as much as that is an indicator at least).  I tend to feed something live when I do this.  Then, I hit them with the meds the next day.  My thoughts here are that if they are infected with something in early enough stages I can't tell, the meds shouldn't stress them too much, and should prevent transfer to any uninfected ones.  If they are infected in a serious way, they'd die in a day or two anyhow, and so if the meds kill them, at least I am preventing future losses.  I'm banking that any losses to the meds are of fish that would not last long regardless, and that at least I can keep the healthy ones healthy. 

My worst set of losses was a particular group of fish that came in, which I'd wanted for a long time and finally found (paying way too much for them).  One died within about 10 minutes of being introduced to the tank but I still wanted to have a chance to feed.  I didn't medicate right away even with what the one that died looked like upon death.  Then I lost two more overnight.  At that point I medicated, and lost another while I was putting the meds in.  Don't think it had to do with the meds per se.  I ended up losing all but 3 of the original 12 over the next 2 days, but I finished the course of medication.  And, I'm glad I did.  I don't think the meds killed any of them, I just don't think it works miracles, and so I lost the ones that were too far gone.  Actually, I was beating myself up that I didn't add the meds right away, but in hindsight I don't think it would have saved maybe more than an extra fish.  It was a rough couple days, and disappointing at the very least.  But it was one of the instances that built my view of the MedTrio: a useful if imperfect tool.  Hope the story was useful.

[Sci]

@OnlyGenusCaps

 

Very helpful. Thank you. 

[Casual aquatics]

What was you treating for?

[Sci]

On 11/16/2021 at 5:08 PM, Casual aquatics said:

What was you treating for?

The few fish I brought back had sunken bellies. Whether they were half starved or had wasting disease I did not know. But I read it was a good idea to preform the 3 med tri regardless. 

[Casual aquatics]

Could have been a parasite what did tgere 💩  look like?