Pygmy Sunfish (was BPD tank)

[Odd Duck]

I’m overdue for putting all of the Bad Pea Daddy story in one place.  He is the pea puffer AKA Dwarf Puffer (Carinotetrodon travancoricus) that I got first.  He was supposed to come with a 5 gallon tank (I wanted to try my hand at scaping a nano tank), but the kid selling the tank showed up with only the pea puffer in a leaking bag.  🙄  This was November 27, 2021 (so glad pics are dated in my phone).

Fortunately, I happened to have a clean, empty 10 gallon and a well-seasoned sponge filter I could swap over. I had some nice rocks (beautiful petrified wood pieces) I had gotten recently that I was eager to put in a tank. I also had some plants that I hadn’t settled anywhere yet.

I quickly set up the tank on my office desk in front of one of the Jack Dempsey grow out tanks.  In the tank with everything and my new boy.  He was just barely showing indications that he was a boy - a hint of a dark belly line and hints of “wrinkles” (semi-circular bright blue lines) around his eyes.  There’s a couple tiny, baby Nymphea lotus ‘Zenkeri’ in front, a couple Red Flame swords (Echinodorus barthii x E. schlueteri ‘Red Flame’) on the back right, a Nymphea stellata right front, a couple Anubias barteri far left mid, and some Amazon frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) clearly not staying in the floating ring.  Second pic showing some Christmas moss (Vesicularia montagnei) attached to a bit of cholla wood and a Cryptocoryne wendtii ‘Red’ I added by Dec 3 and I pulled the Anubias out because I failed at tying them down appropriately.

The fake plants and fish you can see are in the Jack Dempsey fry tank behind his tank.  He used to act like he was schooling with them and swim back and forth with them.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Odd Duck

[Odd Duck]

I started reading more diligently and widely about pea puffer care, so I decided to get him a small harem.  Trouble was, I had no way to tell male from female in juvenile puffers.  I figured I’d get 3 and hope at least 2 were female.  I’d take any back that weren’t female if they didn’t get along.  Well, he bullied everybody.

I don’t know if he was just used to being alone, if the others were male and humans are just too ignorant to tell something that was obvious to him, or if the new puffers had intestinal parasites.  The 3 new puffers did not prosper and I gradually lost all 3.

I tried again with a little more knowledge and a new trio of puffers and had no better luck.  I’m suspecting he’s just a big fat bully by now since I saw him chasing everybody else all the time, so he went into puffer jail - a hang on back (well, on front here) that circulates tank water through the breeder box.

In the mean time, I’ve started a Daphnia magna culture tank mid-December and working on getting other cultures, too.

In this pic, you can see the distinct dark belly line and the blurry looking spots with a fairly strong yellow color to the tail that identifies him as definitely male.  He doesn’t have prominent eye lines and I can’t see them at all in this photo.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Odd Duck

[eatyourpeas]

Handsome boy! 😍

[Jennifer V]

He's a very good looking dude! From what I've learned, you have to entirely rescape a tank when you add new puffs to limit aggression and break up established territory. But they are unpredictable little guys with huge personalities so he's probably happy as can be living by himself. 

Side note: what a great photo of him! I can't seem to get mine to stay still long enough to get anything remarkable. 

[Odd Duck]

So I keep reading and learning, discover they are considered a shoaling species that should have at least 6 for a shoal with 2-3 females for every male.  I think I’m going to need to set up a larger tank and the minimum recommended is 6 peas in a 15 gallon.  Well, (I think to myself) how about 6-8 in a 20 long, good square footage for only a few fish.  So that gets set up on January 17, 2021.

Lots of Crypt. wendtii ‘Red’, Crypt. axelrodii, Helanthium tenellum (Pigmy Chain Sword), Echinodorus cordifolius ‘Marble Queen’, E. vesuvius, E. barthii x schlueteri ‘Red Flame’), E. bleherii (Amazon Sword), Anubias nana ‘Petite Pinto’, Phyllanthus fluitans (Red Root Floaters), Pogostemon helferi, and moved one of the Zenkeri lotuses from his 10 gallon tank.  Edit to add I forgot the Fissidens nobilis moss.

The Zenkeri lotus, the Anubias nana ‘Petite Pinto’, and the Red Root Floater have since been moved to other tanks and the Pogostemon helferi melted.  Crypt. ‘Pink Flamingo’ has been added where the Zenkeri was before and the pigmy chain sword is running like crazy to fill in where the P. helferi melted away.

I put lots of ramshorn snails, bladder snails, blackworms, Daphnia, and scuds in while the plants were growing and settling.  Unknown to me at the time, I apparently transferred some bronze cory eggs with the plants (Corydorus aeneus).  On January 27, I find cory fry!

So there’s no way I’m leaving tiny cory babies in with pea puffers to get eaten and there’s no way in the world I’m going to be able to catch these tiny babies with a net without squashing them AND ruining the planting I spent hours putting together.  I do some reading and find out I can make a fish trap out of a soda bottle.  I manage to catch all the cory fry with my super deluxe, fancy fish trap over the course of about 2 weeks, and move them back in with their parents.

Did I mention I had just set up the tank?  These tiny eggs and fry survived a fish-in cycle because I DIDN’T EVEN KNOW they were in there!  I didn’t bother to do a water change for 2 weeks until I saw the first fry!  The tank was cycling.  With new filters.  New dirt with Osmocote, capped with sand substrate.  New driftwood.  Barely testing because I knew the tank would need time, plants needed to grow, etc.  Tiny babies x 8.  🤦🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Odd Duck

[Odd Duck]

I buy 9 more juvie pea puffers thinking I’ll do the deworming I now know I should.  I’ll put them in the 20 as soon as my parameters are stable and the plants have done some growing and gotten well established.  I put 6 otocinclus in there because everybody says they should be fine and pea puffer tanks tend towards algae issues once they are messy little peas.

I’m growing up peas, developing live food cultures, working at finding the balance for the tank waiting for the peas to declare their sex.  Waiting, waiting.  OK, I have boys, boys, boys, and boys, oop, there’s a girl!  7 of 9 were boys!  Fish trap and whiteworms for the win on catching the little rascals.  Keep the 2 girls, take 6 boys back to my LFS, trade for 6 plus 5 more, this should get me enough girls but I can’t put those into the 20, they need deworming.  Into a 10 with LOTS of fake plants for QT and deworming.

About 3 months or so of maturing (and after thorough deworming) and I finally can tell boys from girls, I bait my fish trap with their favorite white worms, and start catching.  First 6 girls go into the 20, the rest of the young adults stay in the 10 gallon because this was about Bad Pea Daddy, remember?  I still want to give him a chance for a normal social life in a full shoal.

I want to let the young ones get established before I put Bad Dad in because I know he’s already been bad to puffers I thought were girls.  2 weeks to let them settle and I try adding Bad Dad.  He starts posturing to the lone male immediately, they’re showing off, circling, showing off, circling, darting at each other, circling, then he makes his move!  He darted at that young one so fast!  Grabbed him and shook him like a rag doll!

I was ready with the net because, . . . . . Bad Dad.  I scooped him out, and plopped him in his current tank, the 6 gallon cube (not Volcano).  There he will stay, he does not get another chance since he has shown too much evil intent.  He was in the 20 a whopping minute at most before he made his attack.  😔 

He hides far more than I like, but he has all the food he could want with ramshorns, bladders, and scuds whenever he wants, plus a few white worms or blackworms most days.  He has nerites large enough he leaves them alone for his clean up crew.  He has a Betta next door if he wants something interesting to watch.  But he has truly earned his solitary existence because he got multiple chances at better behavior.

I think he’s a bit like a dog that was poorly socialized, he never learned to live with other fish.  He was right next to, and could see the juveniles while they were growing up, so it’s not like he never had a chance to observe, either.  If I could have found peas that were more his size from the beginning, maybe it would have gone better?  But when he comes out, he seems happy enough hunting for whatever strikes his fancy.

His current tank was set up around late June, I think, the first pic tank is from mid-July, I can’t find one when I set it up.  His tank is part of my Low Row, he’s on the left end, the Betta (Volcano) tank is next to him, the 14 cube, then the 2.1 hot mess (havnkt done much with that one, I can’t seem to find any balance yet), then the 20 long puffer shoal which may end up with Betta persephone once puffers move out and I’m convinced there are no puffer babies waiting to come out of the woodwork.

Plant list is more Red Flame sword, more Crypt. wendtii ‘Red’, Anubias nana ‘Petite’, Bucephalandra ‘Biblis’, and Buce. ‘Red Dagger’ with more red root floaters.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Odd Duck

[Odd Duck]

On 10/4/2021 at 6:57 PM, Jennifer V said:

He's a very good looking dude! From what I've learned, you have to entirely rescape a tank when you add new puffs to limit aggression and break up established territory. But they are unpredictable little guys with huge personalities so he's probably happy as can be living by himself. 

Side note: what a great photo of him! I can't seem to get mine to stay still long enough to get anything remarkable. 

Thank you, he is a handsome chonky boy!

He had only been in the first tank a day or so before I added the first juvies.  I rearranged before I added the second trio.  It didn’t help.

He should be wearing a black leather jacket and chains, maybe have some jailhouse tats.  He’s a bad boy!  He was cooperative for photos in puffer jail and again today.  Which is what triggered this topic, I actually got decent photos for a change. I usually get photos of his tail.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Odd Duck
To clarify.

[Guppysnail]

Those wood pieces are stunning. It’s sad that Bad Dad cannot play well with others.  I am always disheartened when one of my fish does not get the full experience of living within its group. 

[ARMYVET]

@Odd Duck WOW you have a true gift for setting up a beautifuly scaped aquarium.  I admire the thoughtfulness you put into them not only in your viewing pleasure but the fishes life experience.  

I just setup a 20 gallon high tank with 5 itsy bitsy pea's in it. Somebody here referred to them as "Murder Beans"  now every time I look at them I think that and just laugh.  I have them with lots of plants and wood.  Actually I need to put in more plants...lol  They have tons of snails and I put in BBS twice a day and it is so funny watching them pick off the BBS like they are stalking them.  

They have become one of my favorites. 

[Odd Duck]

On 10/5/2021 at 4:28 AM, Guppysnail said:

Those wood pieces are stunning. It’s sad that Bad Dad cannot play well with others.  I am always disheartened when one of my fish does not get the full experience of living within its group. 

Believe it or not, there are only 3 wood pieces visible (in his final tank).  The small piece on the left with the Anubias (probably nana ‘Petite’), the piece on the right with the Buce. ‘Biblis’ on it, and the dark piece on top with the Buce. ‘Red Dagger’ on it.

The piece under the dark, top piece is another piece of petrified wood!  I got that and the “volcano” piece in the Betta tank at the same time, and when you look at them together it’s clear they were a single piece that had been cut apart.

I was incredibly lucky to have scored several pieces of petrified wood for a great price from a hobbyist cutting back.  These were the 2 biggest pieces and by far my favorite pieces of rock, of petrified wood, and of tank decor.  The tall piece actually has a tiny branch stub protruding from the main “trunk”.  You can see it just below where the 2 Anubias nana ‘Petite Pinto’ pieces are attached.  The wood detail is so perfectly preserved it’s just amazing.

Most of the smaller pieces are currently zip-tied to the right side piece of driftwood in my 100 gallon tank.  You can see both of these pieces in the first pic of the emergency set up for Bad Dad.  The tall one is obvious, the shorter one is on the left.

I got the pieces only a couple days before I got BPD.  His first tank with me was the first tank where I used them.

And, yes, to making me sad I couldn’t integrate him into a shoal.  I feel like I tried everything except putting him in a big community tank.  I think he’s too stuck in his ways, now.  😞 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Odd Duck

[Odd Duck]

On 10/5/2021 at 7:13 AM, ARMYVET said:

@Odd Duck WOW you have a true gift for setting up a beautifuly scaped aquarium.  I admire the thoughtfulness you put into them not only in your viewing pleasure but the fishes life experience.  

I just setup a 20 gallon high tank with 5 itsy bitsy pea's in it. Somebody here referred to them as "Murder Beans"  now every time I look at them I think that and just laugh.  I have them with lots of plants and wood.  Actually I need to put in more plants...lol  They have tons of snails and I put in BBS twice a day and it is so funny watching them pick off the BBS like they are stalking them.  

They have become one of my favorites. 

Thank you.  I just try to go with what feels right, but I do have a significant amount of art training in my background.

It was likely me that called them “murder beans”.  I do call them that regularly, but I tried to tell this story for him and to help others understand a little bit more about pea puffers.  Maybe it will help other peas from getting stuck in a solitary life.  If I knew then what I know now, I would have pushed harder and worked harder to learn more sooner and gotten him into a shoal sooner.  It might have made all the difference in the world for him.

[eatyourpeas]

On 10/5/2021 at 11:50 AM, Odd Duck said:

Thank you.  I just try to go with what feels right, but I do have a significant amount of art training in my background.

It was likely me that called them “murder beans”.  I do call them that regularly, but I tried to tell this story for him and to help others understand a little bit more about pea puffers.  Maybe it will help other peas from getting stuck in a solitary life.  If I knew then what I know now, I would have pushed harder and worked harder to learn more sooner and gotten him into a shoal sooner.  It might have made all the difference in the world for him.

I think you need to get over that guilty feeling. I tried that with Nicodemus and he has the same nasty traits as BPD, and will eat any roommate that tries to make friends with him. He has killed otos, shrimp, snails, other fish... I finally gave up and left him all to himself in the tank. He is a darling to me, but the darker side of him is just waiting for the right moment to show up, and it is not pretty!

I think they are the handsome bad boys parents warn their daughters about! 🤪

[Odd Duck]

On 10/5/2021 at 1:59 PM, eatyourpeas said:

I think you need to get over that guilty feeling. I tried that with Nicodemus and he has the same nasty traits as BPD, and will eat any roommate that tries to make friends with him. He has killed otos, shrimp, snails, other fish... I finally gave up and left him all to himself in the tank. He is a darling to me, but the darker side of him is just waiting for the right moment to show up, and it is not pretty!

I think they are the handsome bad boys parents warn their daughters about! 🤪

I pretty much got over it when I saw him attack and shake the other male like he was a tiny, helpless ragdoll!  He had a pair of semicircular marks on him, but did just fine afterwards.  But I also still want to make it clear to anyone reading that his attitude may have been changed if I had known more and acted sooner.  Instead I found outdated information that was widely publicized, even from sources that I trusted to be current.

I’m even coming around to the possibility that they could potentially be integrated into large, community tanks if several conditions are met:

   1. There are enough other fish that aren’t too small, let’s face it, they are hard core predators.  And by enough, I mean a dozen or more, better would be a couple dozen assorted fish at least.

   2. There are enough peas to spread the aggression - at least 8 or more.

   3. Did I mention a large enough tank?  Like 40 gallons or bigger.  Peas need room for the males to set up territories.

   4. They are added to the tank as juveniles and the fish “grow up” together.  I don’t think there’s any chance for me adding my shoal and BPD to my 100 gallon nano-fish tank, even if I didn’t have tiny chilis in there.  The shoal, maaaaaaybe but not likely, BPD - no way.  I think the shoal is probably past the point where it would be truly safe for the other inhabitants.  I’m certain BPD is past the point where’s he’s safe to put with anybody.

I think they are definitely a species that needs us to work harder at getting them closer to their natural environment of mixed species, plenty of territory, lots in a group so no one gets too singled out, lots of room to get away from each other and for others to get away from them.  And they should have this from the beginning if at all possible.

It’s like bottle fed kittens, they can be very nasty when they don’t get that early behavior training from momma.  Peas need a shoal and much more environmental stimulus than they get in small tanks, IMHO. 

[Odd Duck]

Way overdue for an update on this tank.  BPD is doing fine.  Has finally decided that he doesn’t hate me and comes out reliably to eat.  He wasn’t for a while and I don’t know why, but for the last couple weeks he’s been out and about a lot instead of hiding so much of the time.

The red root floaters are quite overgrown in this pic from a few days ago, but it does show the growth of the plants.  I pulled a bunch of floaters out today and sent them with my buddy.  We trade fish/plant stuff semi-regularly.

[Dawn T]

On 10/5/2021 at 12:20 PM, Odd Duck said:

I’m even coming around to the possibility that they could potentially be integrated into large, community tanks if several conditions are met:

I only recently found out this was even possible. A friend asked for help with a tank in her home. It had belonged to her husband, who died a few months before she contacted me for help. She'd taken over care and was on a steep learning curve. When I got over there, I found a beautiful, heavily planted. The variety of fish living in there was very interesting. Everyone seemed to be getting along. Imagine my surprise when I spotted a pea puffer! Turned out there were 3 of them in there.

55g tank. She'd bought the pea puffers to control snails. They shared the tank with a Boesemani Rainbow Fish, a herd of platies, and 2 gorgeous rosy barbs (the last survivors of a very old school). Other than the 2 barbs bickering constantly with each other, she wasn't having any aggression issues in the tank. The pea puffers left everyone alone, including each other.

I was totally stunned, since the only other time I'd see pea puffers in a friend's tank, it was a 29g community tank. Things did NOT go well....

[Odd Duck]

@Dawn T It’s taken me a long time and a lot of reading to come to this conclusion.  I haven’t tried it myself, but I have talked to enough people that have, and read enough posts on line that have been successful for many months or years, that I think it is possible within certain boundaries.  Try to do this in a small tank and I’m pretty certain it would be a disaster.

[eatyourpeas]

On 12/4/2021 at 3:16 PM, Odd Duck said:

@Dawn T It’s taken me a long time and a lot of reading to come to this conclusion.  I haven’t tried it myself, but I have talked to enough people that have, and read enough posts on line that have been successful for many months or years, that I think it is possible within certain boundaries.  Try to do this in a small tank and I’m pretty certain it would be a disaster.

I also believe it can be done if all pea puffers come in as juveniles at the same time. Once there is one that has established the kingdom, it becomes next to imposible to introduce mates.

Edited December 4, 2021 by eatyourpeas

[Odd Duck]

On 12/4/2021 at 5:20 PM, eatyourpeas said:

I also believe it can be done if all pea puffers come in as juveniles at the same time. Once there is one that has established the kingdom, it becomes next to imposible to introduce mates.

In a huge tank with lots of peas you might get away with it, but I think you’re correct.  I think it would be extremely difficult to add peas to an existing shoal in anything less than 55 gallons and I wouldn’t do it unless there were LOTS of peas to spread any aggression and lots of line of sight breaks, lots of hiding places, lots of other fish to give the peas something else to think about, etc, etc.

Trying to add BPD to my shoal was quickly disastrous and they were all established in the tank for well over 3 weeks before I tried him in there.  HE was the interloper and HE almost immediately attacked!  Bad, Bad, Pea Daddy!  😝 At least he’s decided to be more social to me.  I was getting really worried about him for a while, then I was just mad because he’s a jerk, then worried again, then frustrated because he was hiding despite everything I did to make him as comfortable as possible, etc, etc.  He causes me more stress than anybody else I have!

Edited December 5, 2021 by Odd Duck
Typos. Ugh. I swear I proofread and I’m usually good at proofreading!

[eatyourpeas]

Well, ORD, but I am glad BPD is playing again. I taught E-schi to play peek-a-boo with the filter suction cup. We can spend quite some time with that game. 😍

[Odd Duck]

So I’m very overdue for an update.  Posted on another thread asking about keeping a solo pea and realized I still hadn’t posted on here that Bad Pea Daddy is no more.  He managed to yeet himself out of his tank about 3 weeks ago and I didn’t realize it.  He always hid so well during and after cleanings, that I often didn’t see him for a day or so.  He was always a pouter after I did anything in the tank.  But when I didn’t see him for a third day, I went looking, thinking he got caught somewhere.  Well, I found him dried up behind the tank.  I always check after I’ve had the top off the tank.  Always.

He must have been directly under the filter out of my line of sight.  So the tank is now empty and will stay empty until after moved into the fish room.  Then I will probably get a Betta or something that shouldn’t be in a shoal.  Or maybe a pair of fish like scarlet badis or licorice gouramis that do well as a pair in a small tank.  I’m still waiting on my Betta persephone.  Maybe I’ll put a pair in each cube.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Odd Duck
Typo

[eatyourpeas]

So sorry to learn about BPD's demise. Miss Ethel did the same thing... 😞

[Odd Duck]

On 2/9/2022 at 11:35 AM, eatyourpeas said:

So sorry to learn about BPD's demise. Miss Ethel did the same thing... 😞

It was his third trip out of a tank.  But I spotted him the first 2 times immediately (saw them happen both times) and he was not harmed, or apparently even bothered, by his time out of water.  I always look so carefully, but didn’t spot him until way too late.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Odd Duck

[Patrick_G]

Oh boy, that’s sad. It’s always hard to lose the ones with names. 

[Odd Duck]

On 2/9/2022 at 12:02 PM, Patrick_G said:

Oh boy, that’s sad. It’s always hard to lose the ones with names. 

One of the reasons I don’t often name fish, but he almost gave himself the name.  He was such a stinker!  And yet I mourn him, stuck in this room, still freaking positive for COVID, staring at his empty tank.  I’m so stir crazy, ready to go back to work, ready to work on fish tanks, but my hubby is high risk, I have high risk coworkers, and I am NOT going to spread this to them if I can prevent it.  At least my oxygen saturation levels are back to normal now.  I was running just a touch low even a couple days ago.  I didn’t check yesterday.

[Patrick_G]

I’m sorry you’re sick, but it’s good that your O2 levels are normal now and I hope you have more than one tank in your quarantine room. How does it affect your staff? Are you the only vet at your  practice?