Chocolate gourami with non-specific symptoms, advice?

[Jess]

I got 12 crossband chocolate gourami on June 20th of this year.  When they came in, one of them had a bit of a cloudy eye but just the one eye so I figured it was some damage.  Never noticed it get any worse and all the fish seem fine...healthy behavior and definitely they are voracious eaters.  I think one of them also was always a little paler than the others, but I can't remember if it's the same one.  They eat mosquito larvae, Xtreme Nano pellets, Hikari freeze-dried tubifex worms, and brine shrimp.  They're in a 45-gallon tank (planted, no CO2), 77 degrees F, with the following (from Aquarium Coop strips): 

• pH 6.4-6.8
• Nitrite 0 ppm, Ammonia: 0 ppm, Chlorine 0 ppm 
• Nitrate 0 ppm (I have a lot of red root floaters in the tank)
• GH: 150-200 ppm
• KH: 0 ppm (it's actually probably 20-30 ppm, which is the KH of my tap water, but I have a buffering aquarium soil in there)

I've noticed over the last couple of days that one of my gouramis lost much more of its color.  He/she was acting fine, so I thought maybe he/she was old.  But today he/she is acting less than fine... still voraciously going after food, but kinda lethargic.  He kinda goes vertical sometimes.  The flow in this tank is fairly intense, which I know is not their favorite thing - not too much I can do about it at the moment because I'm running an Eheim 2217 canister that I had laying around.  I plan to add CO2 and try to grow out the taller plants to provide some buffer from the current.  

Symptoms as of today:

• pale color
• dark eyes (may be protruding a little?)
• kinda lethargic, sometimes tips vertical; definitely swims after food though

Thoughts?  I've had them 3 months, no problems except this guy.  One other fish has eyes that are a bit clouded - but again, I can't be sure for how long, or whether that's the same fish who had a clouded eye when I first got them.  They all act healthy and hungry, except for this very pale one.  I have 3 habrosus corys in the tank with them (the other 3 are in another tank still...I'm unable to catch them and it's very annoying).  These are wild-caught I believe.  Could this be an old-age thing, or should I try to treat this fish?  I don't have a separate tank so I'd have to go buy one (and air stone, etc.)

Thanks, everyone!

 

 

[Colu]

With them being wild caught Have you treated for parasites also colour loss can be  a sign of a bacterial infection  or stress @Jess

Edited October 1, 2021 by Colu

[Guppysnail]

On 10/1/2021 at 6:01 PM, Jess said:

Eheim 2217 canister

I’m not familiar with this. I ended up with guppies in a fluval canister tank.  I pointed the outflow directly at the wall so the force of the water hit the side wall in a v before going into the tank and back to the intake. I don’t know if you can go do it with eheim though. 

[Jess]

On 10/1/2021 at 6:27 PM, Colu said:

With them being wild caught Have you treated for parasites also colour loss can be  a sign of a bacterial infection  or stress @Jess

I did not. Bad fish keeper. 😞 They came from The Wet Spot, and they quarantine, but it’s possible these fosj were new so didn’t get fully quarantined there either. 

On 10/1/2021 at 7:59 PM, Guppysnail said:

I’m not familiar with this. I ended up with guppies in a fluval canister tank.  I pointed the outflow directly at the wall so the force of the water hit the side wall in a v before going into the tank and back to the intake. I don’t know if you can go do it with eheim though. 

yep, this is one thing I will consider. Right now I’m using lily pipes, but I will probably change it to the horizontal outlet pipe with multiple holes in it. 

On 10/1/2021 at 7:59 PM, Guppysnail said:

I’m not familiar with this. I ended up with guppies in a fluval canister tank.  I pointed the outflow directly at the wall so the force of the water hit the side wall in a v before going into the tank and back to the intake. I don’t know if you can go do it with eheim though. 

yep, this is one thing I will consider. Right now I’m using lily pipes, but I will probably change it to the horizontal outlet pipe with multiple holes in it. 

[Colu]

Just a thought as these gourami's are mouth brooders is it possible this is a female and she has eggs in her mouth and that's why she not eating the colour change could be breeding colours @Jess

[Jess]

On 10/1/2021 at 10:27 PM, Colu said:

Just a thought as these gourami's are mouth brooders is it possible this is a female and she has eggs in her mouth and that's why she not eating the colour change could be breeding colours @Jess

I considered that when I first saw her kind of staying away from the others and saw her body color get even lighter.  Among my licorice gouramis, the most receptive female gets significantly lighter in color.  But then I watched him/her feed...this fish eats very readily and really swims after the food.  So, not holding eggs. 😞 

I've just been watching him/her carefully and feeding some extra nutrient-dense foods (lots of baby brine shrimp, along with Xtreme Nano and Hikari freeze-dried tubifex).  I see it's been two weeks since I posted this, and it's actually very nice to have the photo reference.  Today I think his/her color looks better...but still holding the tail fin clamped almost all the time.  Additionally, this fish's tail fin seems to be a little ragged at the ends (and probably unrelated - has much more color/pattern compared to all other 11 fish).  All the other fish are in really perfect condition...all fins intact, good coloration, etc.  All the fish, including this one, eat very well and are very interested in food.  One of the only times he'll join the pack is to go after food...he has no problem jumping in and grabbing his share.

Ultimately, I think these still look like signs of stress but I have no idea what's causing it.  I guess I feel a bit reluctant to go out and buy a new tank and start treating him with random stuff because he's looked like this since I got him in June and because none of the other fish have shown any signs or stress/sickness.  I'm afraid I might go on wild goose hunt and end up speeding up his demise...  I'm hoping that with extra-nutritious food maybe his immune system will take care of whatever it is...I don't know though.

(Side note - sorry I keep mixing up the pronouns; it's annoying to say "he/she" and seems kind of mean to say "it" 😄).

[Colu]

It could be this fish is just bottom of the pecking order  and that's why it's seem stressed and has paler colour @Jess

Edited October 14, 2021 by Colu

[Jess]

Ok so my new theory is perhaps all/some/many of these fish had some kind of pathogen when I got them.  They have been mostly healthy enough for their immune systems to keep it at bay.  The cold shock from our stupid weather last Sunday kind of stressed all of them.  I've lost one out of 12, and seem to be losing two more.

That sick one was the first to go. He was lying on the substrate last Sunday morning.  Temperature outside had dropped to 45 overnight, heater wasn't on in the house and aquarium heaters have been unplugged for safety.  Tanks have been a stable 78 degrees since May.  That morning they were at 66.  I turned on the heater and by evening it was at 76. I put that fish in a net in the tank (he was still alive and I just wanted to keep the snails and other fish away from him).  The other fish were acting fine, except one exhibiting this same stress pattern and self-isolating.

I tried to treat the sick fish in a quarantine tupperware with salt per Aq Coop blog, and today he passed.  

As of now, I'm missing one...probably somewhere in the tank hiding and stressed and sick.  There is substantial algae I was growing for the otos I just got three weeks ago.  Yes I guess it's also possible those had something and spread it.  The 6 habrosus corys are fine.  I guess I will have to consider tearing down one tank and converting it to a quarantine tank. I have an extra sponge filter, airstone, etc., but not an extra tank and not an extra heater.  These guys apparently really need a minimum tank temp around 76-78.  All my other fish, including licorice gourami, survived the cold snap without any issue (but I did turn on all heaters).

Today I saw one of the two stressed fish, and finally some symptom other than the pale coloration and self-isolating.  See the white spot near the gill plate?  @Colu do you have any thoughts or suggestions about what to do here?  One other thing is that some of them have a cloudy-white spot in their eyes - you can see it in the first picture.  I've got a cart full of Aquarium Coop stuff - ParaCleanse is in it right now.  Is that a good plan?  Or salt?  Or something else?  I'm about ready to round up all these fish and quarantine them together.  Only thing is I need to buy a 10-gallon and a heater, and somehow find space for it.  I'm a little overwhelmed right now...I don't want to lose more of these fish.  They've all been basically healthy for the last 4 months.  I guess I can't treat the whole tank because a) it's fully planted (no CO2) and b) I have 6 habrosus corys and 6 otos in there too.

I included some pics of the seemingly-healthy ones for comparison.  I'm sorry they are upside-down. I don't know why this forum imports my pics upside-down half the time. Very frustrating.

IMG_2544 - some fish have cloudy-white spot in eyes

IMG_2547 - what they generally look and act like

IMG_2561 - stressed color, white spot near gill plate

IMG_2557 - two with normal-looking colorations (much darker)

 

Thanks in advance, everyone. 

 

[Colu]

Cold shock could have weaken their immune system leaving them susceptible to bacterial infection cloudy eye can be caused by poor water quality  stress  or fungal larger spots look more  epistylis what I would do is  is a course of kanaplex in food if they still eating and add one dose  ick x to cover against any fungal infection  their safe to use together when using Kana in food 

[Jess]

Thanks @Colu!  I got a 10-gallon, some Ich-X from Coop, and a heater which arrives today.  Already had a spare sponge filter, etc. (thank goodness...I think in my next order I might also get yet another spare filter, pump, airstone, LOL).  I'm going to treat them with the Ich-X first (I actually started seeing just a couple of random spots on tail fin...maybe one per fish on about half the fish). 

I'm going to go with stress as the cause for the cloudy eyes, and the ich outbreak - it seems these guys really need much more heat than I thought.  I've been treating them like my licorice gourami, which are happy anywhere from 72 to 78, and survived the 66-degree cold snap un-phased (they're constantly spawning...)  I looked again at their Seriously Fish profile and it lists their temp preference as 78-88.  So they may just be a bit chilly.

I'll treat them for the ich in the hospital tank at 80, and then return them to an 80-degree tank.  This definitely creates a bit of a problem for me because I have a ton of plants in that tank and they are not likely to prefer the high temps.  We'll see how I get on...

Thank you for your help!!!

 

  

[anewbie]

I could be mistaken but i believe chocolate gourami; esp wild ones; require very soft acidic water and your water is a bit hard for them. Not sure if this would cause long term health issue.

[Jess]

On 10/29/2021 at 1:09 PM, anewbie said:

I could be mistaken but i believe chocolate gourami; esp wild ones; require very soft acidic water and your water is a bit hard for them. Not sure if this would cause long term health issue.

Yes, that's true!  I've been trying to keep the GH as low I can while keeping the plants from eating themselves.  I tested the water yesterday and it's at 75ppm.  Still a little harder than they'd prefer, but it's quite a bit lower than it was.

Interesting, the tank with my licorice gouramis in it still has the higher GH and those guys are totally fine.  That tank has Hygrophila pinnatifida in it, which requires enormous amounts of potassium compared to what's in my tap water.  

Thanks for this reminder. I'm going to take extra care to keep the GH at 75ppm max, and watch the plants for signs of stress.  Some plants may just need to be removed if they're stressed...the fish are living things, so they're more important to me than the plants!