Watching Apistogramma spawn from inside the cave - answering a question about entrance size.

[Lowells Fish Lab]

After watching my kribensis spawn this way I've been very interested to try the cave camera out on apistos and this evening I was able to catch it. At the same time, I wanted to use at least one spawn to test something I've heard frequently about apisto cave preferences: that the ideal opening size is one that is small enough that the female can fit through but the male can't.

I've spawned a couple of pairs of cacatuoides this year and in all cases, the cave openings were plenty large enough for the male to enter and in every case, he did. I have to assume that male apistos would turn upside down and fertilize the eggs directly just like I saw my male kribensis do. I've been very curious if a male apisto really can fertilize eggs from outside a cave and if so, how? I read once that they release milt and then fan it into the cave opening with their fins.

I made myself a second cave and this time, made the opening only large enough for the female to enter, and just barely (she has to lean sideways a bit as she passes through). Here's what I saw when they spawned:

As the female cleaned the roof, the male stayed right outside the entrance swimming back and forth and frequently trying to enter. You can see him trying here, and he certainly can't. Watching it live, it looked really frustrating for him.

The female frequently stuck her head out of the cave entrance to get the male's attention and then would swim back inside slowly, with her body turned toward the male. It looked to me like she was trying to lead him into the cave. I've seen her do this in other caves and in those cases, he would follow.

As she started laying eggs, the male's behavior didn't really change. He sat outside the entrance, still occasionally trying to fit himself through the opening.

The eggs on the interior wall here are more visible, but the bulk of them are above on the ceiling of the cave. It looks like she tried to lay them as close as possible to the entrance. In other caves, she's laid eggs several inches back from the entrance.

If you look through the opening here, you can see the male outside. If he was releasing milt and fanning it in with his fins, it wasn't obvious. He didn't move much at all other than pacing back and forth like before.

And now we wait. If any eggs hatch I'll be surprised, I'll be happy, and most of all I'll be very confused. This female spawns like clockwork about every 10 days so worst case scenario I'll just swap out to the cave with a larger entrance and give this poor male a break. Either way, I feel like I'll have an answer.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Lowells Fish Lab

[Crabby]

Ooh cool experiment! I haven’t heard of this approach before. Following to see what happens.

[Lowells Fish Lab]

Things aren't looking good for this spawn:

I won't say never, I'll just say not this time. The reports I've heard of fertilizing from outside a cave have sounded so confident, and are numerous enough that I have to believe it's at least possible and I will probably attempt this again. In the meantime I'm going to switch to my cave with a larger opening because I would love to get some imagery of a successful spawn.

If I can get this to work, I will of course post some pictures. Because science.

[Chuck13]

I’m making an ApIsto cave this weekend. I want the entrance just big enough for the male (and female) to enter but not the other bigger fish in the tank. Any ballpark on the size of the hole for the entrance?

[Lowells Fish Lab]

On 10/15/2021 at 8:03 PM, Chuck13 said:

I’m making an ApIsto cave this weekend. I want the entrance just big enough for the male (and female) to enter but not the other bigger fish in the tank. Any ballpark on the size of the hole for the entrance?

I would say about .75 inch wide and more towards a solid inch tall for the male to be able to fit. depending on how large he is. They are ok with tucking their fins in a bit on the way through an opening

[Lowells Fish Lab]

This is a different female and she doesn't seem as comfortable with the cave. In the last couple of weeks she has spawned on vertical surfaces around the tank. I've changed the positioning of the cave so that I can watch it from the outside and the inside simultaneously. I've seen the male do this a few times and I wonder, is he trying to trap her in the cave? He just sat there blocking the entrance for a solid minute. During that time she appeared to be looking for another exit.

 

Eventually he slowly drifted into the cave and made an opening...

 

....and immediately she darted out.

This is conjecture of course, but I enjoy trying to figure out why they do things. I haven't heard of cave trapping behavior from apistos before but it sure looks that way. He spends hours inside and around this cave trying to coax her into it. I've made some adjustments to the tank to remove other potential spawning points (such as elevating the sponge filter so that she can't spawn behind it). She spawned about 4 days ago so she isn't quite ready yet. I'll be crossing my fingers that she accepts the cave.

[CT_]

Woah cool!  What if you give them the choice of cave with a small and bigger opening?

[Lowells Fish Lab]

On 10/19/2021 at 10:16 AM, CT_ said:

Woah cool!  What if you give them the choice of cave with a small and bigger opening?

When I've offered them caves with different sized openings at the same time, the female seems to prefer a smaller opening. Another factor is how spacious the cave is on the inside. If the male can squeeze into a small cave space he's like a bull in a china shop. Half the eggs end up on the floor or knocked out of the cave entirely.

[Lowells Fish Lab]

I got to watch another spawn this evening, this time with the male inside the cave.

To my surprise, I never saw the male turn upside down and directly fertilize the eggs. All he did was lean sideways and quiver in their direction.

 

As soon as the female finished spawning the male left abruptly and hasn't come back. Another difference from the kribensis.

 

Seeing this actually makes me more inclined to believe that they can fertilize from outside the cave.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Lowells Fish Lab

[anewbie]

Yes for cockatoo which are harem breeders; the female will kill the male if he stays near the eggs/frys. However, there are apistogramma species that will form m:f bonds and in that case both parents (like kribs) will care for the eggs and fry.

[cornelius85]

On 10/26/2021 at 4:23 PM, anewbie said:

Yes for cockatoo which are harem breeders; the female will kill the male if he stays near the eggs/frys. However, there are apistogramma species that will form m:f bonds and in that case both parents (like kribs) will care for the eggs and fry.

It really depends on the pair, generrally females do not let the males near the eggs or fry. But sometimes they  do, and when they do it is a sight to behold. It is very beatifull to watch both of them taking care of the fry as a team. One of my current pair is like that, And their fry grows quicker and survival rate is higher that other pair I have, which I have to remove the male after eggs got laid.

[anewbie]

On 10/26/2021 at 1:43 PM, cornelius85 said:

It really depends on the pair, generrally females do not let the males near the eggs or fry. But sometimes they  do, and when they do it is a sight to behold. It is very beatifull to watch both of them taking care of the fry as a team. One of my current pair is like that, And their fry grows quicker and survival rate is higher that other pair I have, which I have to remove the male after eggs got laid.

I'm sorry but I will have to (mostly) disagree. yes you will find a rare cockatoo where what you say is partially  true - though in those cases the male is not going to help with raising the frys but the female is passive in driving him away; the matter of the face it depends more on the species than the individual fish. There are species of apistogramma that form tight m;f bonds and for those species both parents will protect and raise the frys. This is also true for mouth brooding. There are species of apistogramma that are mouth brooders but that is a different matter.

Edited October 26, 2021 by anewbie

[cornelius85]

On 10/26/2021 at 10:16 PM, anewbie said:

I'm sorry but I will have to (mostly) disagree. yes you will find a rare cockatoo where what you say is partially  true - though in those cases the male is not going to help with raising the frys but the female is passive in driving him away; the matter of the face it depends more on the species than the individual fish. There are species of apistogramma that form tight m;f bonds and for those species both parents will protect and raise the frys. This is also true for mouth brooding. There are species of apistogramma that are mouth brooders but that is a different matter.

Would you kindly point out which species of apistos form tight m/f  bonds. I would love to know, because I have several different apisto species in my care and did not observe such behavior from the ones I own. Would love to keep that fish aswell. Would be a nice experience 

Currently I have,

1 Pairs of below speceis

*Apistogramma atahualpa

*Apistogramma baenschi

*Apistogramma hongsloi

*Apistogramma panduro

*Apistogramma borelli 

*Apistogramma agassizi

And two pairs of Apistogramma cacatuoides.

The female I mentinoned does not drive away the male passively. He is acvtivle taking care of the fry. He is doing things like taking the wanderer babies in his mouth and spitting  right beside the female.  

I know their behavior well enough to differentiate between agression, and fry care.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by cornelius85

[anewbie]

Baenschi is suppose to form tight male female bond. If you keep 2 females with a male; and a bond forms with one female the male will kill the other female. I know borelli and cockatoo are harem breeders; vaguely i believe agassizi are harem breeders but not sure without looking it up; i believe panduro form weak bond but not 100% sure (there are three types - strong m:f bond, weak bond; strictly harem breeders). Don't know anything about atahualpa.

 

Which species does the male help with the frys ?

 

[cornelius85]

Baenschi does not form any bond with the male, mine will kill the male if I leave him in the tank after the fry becomes free swimming.

A good friend of mine who only kept apistos for the last 15 years is keeping his  baenschi as a harem in a 300 liters tank.

 

On 10/26/2021 at 11:41 PM, anewbie said:

Which species does the male help with the frys ?

My cacatuoides pair which I mentioned in my first post. I know this is unusual, but this was what I meant when I said "it really depends on the pair". 

[anewbie]

On 10/26/2021 at 4:19 PM, cornelius85 said:

Baenschi does not form any bond with the male, mine will kill the male if I leave him in the tank after the fry becomes free swimming.

A good friend of mine who only kept apistos for the last 15 years is keeping his  baenschi as a harem in a 300 liters tank.

 

My cacatuoides pair which I mentioned in my first post. I know this is unusual, but this was what I meant when I said "it really depends on the pair". 

The information i have said that baenschi group should be m:f bonding so I'm not sure what is going on with your male female - i have not kept them but it could be that they did not pair up and he is trying to drive the female away in hope of a more suitable female; i have kept borelli, cockatoo, hongsoli, nijjensi. my male cockatoo has nothing to do with the frys and they are not pair forming (they are strictly harem breeders - though in your case you only have one female in the harem); i do find it interesting if he is actively helping with the fry raising. That seems unusual. 

[HH Morant]

Wow! Great shots!

[cornelius85]

On 10/27/2021 at 12:53 AM, anewbie said:

The information i have said that baenschi group should be m:f bonding so I'm not sure what is going on with your male female - i have not kept them but it could be that they did not pair up and he is trying to drive the female away in hope of a more suitable female; i have kept borelli, cockatoo, hongsoli, nijjensi. my male cockatoo has nothing to do with the frys and they are not pair forming (they are strictly harem breeders - though in your case you only have one female in the harem); i do find it interesting if he is actively helping with the fry raising. That seems unusual. 

I think your info on the baenschi is wrong, Male is not  looking for a more suitable female, because the already spawned twice.

They are, as you called harem breeders.

 

As for my cockatoo, They are acting like your description of baenschi. There were two females in the tank but both male and the female attacked third female viciously way before they spawn, so I had to seperate her.

My conclusion is these are living things, so there is no black and white wtih their behavior. Once in a while there will be ones that behaves differently than the general population.   

 

 

[anewbie]

On 10/26/2021 at 5:19 PM, cornelius85 said:

I think your info on the baenschi is wrong, Male is not  looking for a more suitable female, because the already spawned twice.

They are, as you called harem breeders.

 

As for my cockatoo, They are acting like your description of baenschi. There were two females in the tank but both male and the female attacked third female viciously way before they spawn, so I had to seperate her.

My conclusion is these are living things, so there is no black and white wtih their behavior. Once in a while there will be ones that behaves differently than the general population.   

 

 

Given the complete opposite in expected behavior one would almost think you have confused your baenschi with the cockatoo.

[dorsalfin]

On 10/28/2021 at 3:22 PM, anewbie said:

Given the complete opposite in expected behavior one would almost think you have confused your baenschi with the cockatoo.

Just to throw more fuel to this fire my Baenschi have bred a couple times and moves from different tanks and are not aggressive towards each other at all. Left the fry in with them until they were 1/2 an inch or so and no issues. The male just kept a wide berth when the female was out with the fry.

[cornelius85]

On 10/28/2021 at 7:22 AM, anewbie said:

Given the complete opposite in expected behavior one would almost think you have confused your baenschi with the cockatoo.

If someone were to say to me, that I am confusing my fish, and  I dont know which species is wich. I would say to them, that I am breeding these fish for profit succesfully and unlike them I actually keep them and experience their behaviour. Unlike someone who reads something from somewhere, and relays that info instead of their experience.

[anewbie]

On 10/28/2021 at 2:48 AM, cornelius85 said:

If someone were to say to me, that I am confusing my fish, and  I dont know which species is wich. I would say to them, that I am breeding these fish for profit succesfully and unlike them I actually keep them and experience their behaviour. Unlike someone who reads something from somewhere, and relays that info instead of their experience.

Look I'm not discounting your observation; and i can see the baenschi behavior being as you described; but I will say that my nijjensi (same complex as baenschi) behaved as expected as well as my cockatoo (the male had nothing to do with the fry and the female chased him away); so it would be interesting to understand what trigger the behavior you are seeing esp with the cockatoo. I suspect the baenschi is not in a position to find suitable mate and so is just breeding opportunistically and moving on but that would not explain the cockatoo behavior.

Edited October 28, 2021 by anewbie

[Cz1989]

Is there a thread related to how you built the cave cameras?  I would love to spy on my gudgeons! 

[cornelius85]

On 11/3/2021 at 3:27 AM, Cz1989 said:

Is there a thread related to how you built the cave cameras?  I would love to spy on my gudgeons! 

I believe it is a pot, cut in half, small hole in the bottom, and the big opening against the glass.

[Lowells Fish Lab]

After quite a bit of tweaking I finally got a successful hatch. You can see a little pile of wigglers on the right side of the cave floor:

In this case I did use a cave entrance that was too small for the male to enter so it looks like they can actually fertilize from outside the cave. As before, the female placed her eggs as close as possible to the entrance. In fact a few of them were laid on the entrance itself.

This male and female have produced fry for me before in a traditional cave, but until now I haven't had a successful hatch while also filming it. I figured at first that this was because excessive water exchange (caused by gaps around the viewing end of the cave) was preventing the male's milt from concentrating around the eggs long enough to fertilize them. I made a new cave with a much smaller internal volume and was careful to cut the pot at an angle that would leave the smallest possible gaps where it meets the glass. I also reduced overall water flow in the tank. That didn't change the outcome for me but after some thought I still think water flow and internal cave volume are factors that can affect successful fertilization.

The only other factor I could think of was light sensitivity. I've looked that up a handful of times and have only found assurances that the eggs are not light sensitive. I believe that, but I also doubt that many people have bright light sources only inches away from the eggs. I eventually I tried leaving the cave totally dark while the eggs were laid and fertilized. I didn't turn the light back on for about 36 hours. Fortunately it worked out.

In previous attempts, with the cave constantly illuminated, the eggs didn't decay quickly. The female would fan them for about 48 hours but eventually they would start to turn white and she would remove them. I'm wondering to myself now if maybe it isn't the eggs that are sensitive to strong lighting, but the milt. I might do some more testing to see how soon after the eggs are laid and fertilized that they can tolerate light and still hatch.

My whole objective here was to find out what criteria make an ideal cave and in particular, whether it really is preferable to use an entrance that doesn't allow the male to enter. I've seen clearly that they very much want to be in the cave, but are capable of getting the job done either way. I think it comes down to the risk that the male might eat eggs or fry (which I have watched them do). At the moment I'm inclined to agree that if they can be kept out, it's probably a more secure strategy.