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Trouble Shooting Help Needed - Lost 50% of my Bolivian Rams


Janelle
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Would love some insight in trying to figure out if I am doing something wrong or if it was just luck of the draw.  Would love for input on any corrections that should be made.  I think I will be trying my hand one more time in ordering another bunch of Bolivian rams as I'd like a bigger group than just the 3.

8/25 - Received 6 Bolivian rams from Aqua Huna.  Put them in my cycled 20gal QT tank which is bare bottom w/ a sponge filter, java fern, coconut shell and PVC pipe for hides.  Started them on QT med trio.
Ammonia - 0
Nitrate - 10
Nitrite - 0
GH - 300+
KH - 300
PH - 8.4
CL2 - 0
Temp - 80*

After QT finished, started feeding fish extreme flake and nano pellet.  Occasionally would give frozen brine and daphnia.  I changed water every few days.  Left fish in QT until 9/25.  After the med trio I proceeded to lose 3 fish.  About 1 a week.  They were all colored nicely then suddenly got really grey, hide, and then swim like they were drunk and breathe rapidly.  Almost looked neurological.  No visible signs of issues on outside of body.  They hugged the bottom of the tank and when they died they did not float to the surface.
Water parameters in QT stabilized at:
Ammonia - 0
Nitrate - 10-25
Nitrite - 0
GH - 300+
KH - 80
PH - 7.04
CL2 - 0
TDS - 552
Temp - 80*

The 3 remaining rams are loving the planted 75 gal community tank.  They are eating great and swimming all over.  They are nice and bright in color and look to be feeling well.  Picture attached.
Tank Paramaters:
Ammonia - 0
Nitrate - 10-25
Nitrite - 0
GH - 300+
KH - 120
PH - 6.91
CL2 - 0
TDS - 573
Temp - 80*

Thank you for your help!

4D86C69A-60A4-47FC-ADF1-177B9A1F4C6D_1_201_a.jpeg

Edited by Janelle
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On 9/26/2021 at 9:39 PM, Janelle said:

@Patrick_G

Do you think that would cause them to die at week 4 & 5?  I went back through my records and narrowed down when they died. One looked week from the get go and it died week 4. The last 2 died at week 5. 
 

I was hoping all the Ram keepers would reply. I think my original theory probably isn’t correct based on your subsequent ph levels. Maybe @Dean’s Fishroomhas a guess.

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How did pH drop from 8.4 to 6.91?

What is the pH of your tap?

I don't think the pH drop itself is necessarily to blame, but I do wonder what is causing the pH drop.

Fish are generally more resilient than we give them credit for, the problem is we are landlubbers and fail to take into consideration **all** the stresses we subject our fish to...

Shipping is a stress.

New water is a stress.

The med trio is a stress.

Not eating for 48 hours before shipping, followed by not eating during shipping, followed immediately by not eating during treatment with the med trio is compounded stress.

Followed by whatever generated the pH drop.

That's an awful lot of variables, right there, making discerning what is correlational and what was causational a tad tricky.

Quarantine does need to happen, so identifying what caused the pH drop would be the variable you can control.

Possibly may want to feed new fish with BBS and other nutrient dense foods between shipping and med trio, also. 

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I don't think you did anything wrong. It really does sound like PH shock to me.

The osmotic damage from PH shock can take days to a few weeks to manifest, depending on it's severity. 

I believe Aqua Huna's PH is about 6.8 and yours is 8.4 so there may have been shock. I had nearly the same situation when I bought fish twice from dealers with vastly different PH's than mine (mine is 8.2).

In two instances, fish I bought from dealers in Florida had PH's around 6-7 and I lost 50% of the population over a 1-2 week period. I've done it somewhat successfully with a drip but frankly it's easier to verify with the dealer what PH they're fishes are acclimated to and stick with dealers with similar PH's.

As Torrey said previously, shipping is so stressful on them, I try to buy from dealers near me in Southern California so they have similar water parameters.

Edited by dasaltemelosguy
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On 9/27/2021 at 2:46 PM, Janelle said:

@Odd Duck QT tank stabilized once the week of meds was over and I did a water change.  So during week 2. 

I’m sorry for your loss, that’s always hard and had happened to all of us at some time or another.

Please indulge me while I me recap to make sure I’m clear on the time line (I think I’m off someplace).

8/25 - water parameters are at first list, received fish, started med trio which was finished after one week.  QT = 20 gallon bare bottom with sponge filter, plants, and hides.

9/1-9/8 - water parameters in QT tank stabilized at the second list of parameters.

9/22 (beginning of week 4) - lost the first fish sometime during this week (starting with the one that was weak from the start)?

9/25 - quarantine over, moved remaining fish to the 75 gallon and lost 2 more fish during week 5, is that correct?

Please correct any timing that I have wrong.  Trying to wrap my head around this to see how/if I/we can help.

How often were you testing?

Breathing hard and swimming like they’re drunk/neuro sounds most like ammonia toxicosis to me.  But that doesn’t really make sense if the last 2 died in the main tank.  Unless the timeline is off.  Minor adjustments in the time line may, or may not, change what we expect to see as far as potential causes of the fish loss.

I haven’t kept rams in at least three decades so I’m no expert on them specifically.  Back then, we paid much less attention to pH, GH, KH, rarely did any testing with fresh water, etc, so in many ways I’m still relearning/learning some things.

But even then, they were considered a little fiddly and known to like softer water.  That may play in because more toxic ammonia is more prevalent at higher pH and it tends to be shifted toward less toxic ammonium in lower pH water.  So even though they seemed to tolerate the higher pH water, there could have been some slowly accumulative damage to the gills or their nervous system?

Speculating here since this still seems unlikely to me, but I can’t quite completely rule it out.  A good filter can convert ammonia very quickly (24 hours or less) but maybe there were some sudden spikes that weren’t picked up by testing but still caused damage.  We know fish almost guaranteed have some damage in shipping.  Ammonia absolutely builds up in the bag no matter how carefully they are shipped.

I would dare to say that every single fish that gets shipped has some ammonia damage to the gills and likely some systemic damage.  If we prevent further damage, then they can heal and survive.  If they get even small amounts of further damage, it can tip them over the edge and their body can no longer compensate.

In patients with a very poorly functioning liver, they can get ammonia levels that gradually build up to the point where eating a meal high in protein can give them temporary neuro symptoms until the ammonia in their blood clears up until the next meal.

Also severely respiratory compromised patients are by far the most difficult to treat.  Even cardiac patients are easier as long as their lungs aren’t completely filled with fluid.  Once the lungs are past the tipping point, it is incredibly difficult to recover them.

Fish respiratory systems (gills) are incredibly efficient at collecting oxygen.  They have to be since the oxygen concentration in water is soooooo much lower than it is in air (typically less than 0.001% vs 21% in air).  Typical aquariums run 6-9 ppm oxygen at full saturation.  Air is about 210,000 ppm.

Fish have THE most efficient respiratory system of all animals extracting about 80% of the oxygen that flows across their gills.  It has to do with the direction of water flow over the gills plus the direction of blood flow through the gills.  Plus their blood picks up and releases oxygen to the tissues better than ours.

Us puny mammals collect only about 25% of the oxygen that gets into their lungs (plus we have more feeble hemoglobin - we’re soooo inefficient at breathing compared to many other species).  That’s why mouth to mouth resuscitation can work for mammals (don’t try it for your fish).  If we extracted more oxygen at each breath, we would be smothering the patient with our CO2 when we tried to breath for them.

Sorry, got to diving down a rabbit hole reminding myself on the numbers on dissolved oxygen in aquariums and double checking the conversions from % to ppm.

All that being said and back to the subject, the swimming weird and neuro symptoms sound like actual ammonia toxicosis vs only gill burns which will usually leave them gasping at the surface.  But maybe we have a combination of things happening that left your weaker fish right at the borderline of compromised, then the slightest little transient bump in ammonia caused symptoms and death?

Whew, somebody stop me!  I need to work on aquariums today, not just dive down an aquarium rabbit hole!  AGAIN!  😆 

 

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On 9/27/2021 at 5:07 PM, Odd Duck said:

I’m sorry for your loss, that’s always hard and had happened to all of us at some time or another.

Please indulge me while I me recap to make sure I’m clear on the time line (I think I’m off someplace).

8/25 - water parameters are at first list, received fish, started med trio which was finished after one week.  QT = 20 gallon bare bottom with sponge filter, plants, and hides.

9/1-9/8 - water parameters in QT tank stabilized at the second list of parameters.

9/22 (beginning of week 4) - lost the first fish sometime during this week (starting with the one that was weak from the start)?

9/25 - quarantine over, moved remaining fish to the 75 gallon and lost 2 more fish during week 5, is that correct?

Please correct any timing that I have wrong.  Trying to wrap my head around this to see how/if I/we can help.

How often were you testing?

Breathing hard and swimming like they’re drunk/neuro sounds most like ammonia toxicosis to me.  But that doesn’t really make sense if the last 2 died in the main tank.  Unless the timeline is off.  Minor adjustments in the time line may, or may not, change what we expect to see as far as potential causes of the fish loss.

I haven’t kept rams in at least three decades so I’m no expert on them specifically.  Back then, we paid much less attention to pH, GH, KH, rarely did any testing with fresh water, etc, so in many ways I’m still relearning/learning some things.

But even then, they were considered a little fiddly and known to like softer water.  That may play in because more toxic ammonia is more prevalent at higher pH and it tends to be shifted toward less toxic ammonium in lower pH water.  So even though they seemed to tolerate the higher pH water, there could have been some slowly accumulative damage to the gills or their nervous system?

Speculating here since this still seems unlikely to me, but I can’t quite completely rule it out.  A good filter can convert ammonia very quickly (24 hours or less) but maybe there were some sudden spikes that weren’t picked up by testing but still caused damage.  We know fish almost guaranteed have some damage in shipping.  Ammonia absolutely builds up in the bag no matter how carefully they are shipped.

I would dare to say that every single fish that gets shipped has some ammonia damage to the gills and likely some systemic damage.  If we prevent further damage, then they can heal and survive.  If they get even small amounts of further damage, it can tip them over the edge and their body can no longer compensate.

In patients with a very poorly functioning liver, they can get ammonia levels that gradually build up to the point where eating a meal high in protein can give them temporary neuro symptoms until the ammonia in their blood clears up until the next meal.

Also severely respiratory compromised patients are by far the most difficult to treat.  Even cardiac patients are easier as long as their lungs aren’t completely filled with fluid.  Once the lungs are past the tipping point, it is incredibly difficult to recover them.

Fish respiratory systems (gills) are incredibly efficient at collecting oxygen.  They have to be since the oxygen concentration in water is soooooo much lower than it is in air (typically less than 0.001% vs 21% in air).  Typical aquariums run 6-9 ppm oxygen at full saturation.  Air is about 210,000 ppm.

Fish have THE most efficient respiratory system of all animals extracting about 80% of the oxygen that flows across their gills.  It has to do with the direction of water flow over the gills plus the direction of blood flow through the gills.  Plus their blood picks up and releases oxygen to the tissues better than ours.

Us puny mammals collect only about 25% of the oxygen that gets into their lungs (plus we have more feeble hemoglobin - we’re soooo inefficient at breathing compared to many other species).  That’s why mouth to mouth resuscitation can work for mammals (don’t try it for your fish).  If we extracted more oxygen at each breath, we would be smothering the patient with our CO2 when we tried to breath for them.

Sorry, got to diving down a rabbit hole reminding myself on the numbers on dissolved oxygen in aquariums and double checking the conversions from % to ppm.

All that being said and back to the subject, the swimming weird and neuro symptoms sound like actual ammonia toxicosis vs only gill burns which will usually leave them gasping at the surface.  But maybe we have a combination of things happening that left your weaker fish right at the borderline of compromised, then the slightest little transient bump in ammonia caused symptoms and death?

Whew, somebody stop me!  I need to work on aquariums today, not just dive down an aquarium rabbit hole!  AGAIN!  😆 

 

SO .... Im not sure exactly what you mean...can you explain that again...🤣

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@Torrey & @dasaltemelosguy your questions regarding my PH got me thinking...below doesn't really explain the drop in PH but, I did put the Java Fern and 1 catapa leaf into the tank when the week of meds was over and I had done a water change. 

Since AC came out w/ their test strips I have abandoned other forms of testing, and having only been using test strips.  I just did some comparisons on my tap water and decided to use 2 additional tests to compare the results.

Here is what I noticed:
Strips:  8.4
Vivosun PH Meter:  7.04  (I re-calibrated my meter and my before/after numbers remained the same)
Master Test:  7.4

I am not really concerned about the difference in numbers from the Vivosun meter & master test because chasing numbers that small will drive a person crazy.  However, I am really concerned with the test strips.  (I will have to send AC an email for feedback). I have included 2 pictures, what level do you see on the strips?  Side comment:  the KH and GH are also so hard for me to figure out.  To me the GH is nowhere close to the colors provided so I just figure its 300+.  

Thank you both for your thoughts on this, this is my favorite part of the hobby!  The detective work!

00945670-28D8-45FC-8D36-AC5AEEA80B70_1_201_a.jpeg

25583B48-816A-4C0E-9DF9-DE74B5BEF68A.png

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On 9/27/2021 at 2:07 PM, Odd Duck said:

8/25 - water parameters are at first list, received fish, started med trio which was finished after one week.  QT = 20 gallon bare bottom with sponge filter, plants, and hides. Added java fern and 1 catapa leaf after week of meds and water change.

9/1-9/8 - water parameters in QT tank stabilized at the second list of parameters.  Yes

9/22 (beginning of week 4) - lost the first fish sometime during this week (starting with the one that was weak from the start)? Yes week 4 lost the fish that seemed weak to begin with.  That fish eventually parked himself at the surface and died w/in 24 hrs. Now I am guessing ammonia issues.

9/25 - quarantine over, moved remaining fish to the 75 gallon and lost 2 more fish during week 5, is that correct?  Around 9/20 I lost 1 fish.  I performed a 30% water change but added water from my 75 gal to the QT thinking that it would help them acclimate easier since the water parameters are different enough.  On 9/25 I moved the remaining 4 fish to 75 gal.  After 2 hrs in the tank I noticed 1 of them hiding, turned grey and having the same issues of the fish that died on 9/20. This is where I probably made a huge mistake and I transferred it directly back to the QT tank.  I was worried about it getting the other fish in the tank sick.  Over night it died.  

@Odd Duck I added some additional notes to the timeline you wrote out.  While investigating some additional details have come to mind.  See my notes above

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On 9/27/2021 at 2:57 PM, Odd Duck said:

It is notoriously difficult to be accurate with pH test strips.  Even strips that ONLY measure pH and nothing else.

So the first set of parameters was test strip, second the pH was your meter, third was API Master kit?

I filled a cup w/ tap water and tested it using the 3 different tests.  I was wondering if maybe the test strip has been off this whole time and my PH numbers are actually lower than the strip is indicating.

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On 9/27/2021 at 5:09 PM, Janelle said:

@Odd Duck I added some additional notes to the timeline you wrote out.  While investigating some additional details have come to mind.  See my notes above

Did you test your parameters directly after meds week?  Meds can affect biofiltration.

I don’t know that keeping the sick fish in the 75 would have helped if it got that sick and died that fast.

So first fish died on or shortly after the 22nd (beginning of week 4) or maybe beginning of week 3 and next fish die on 9/20?  Then the last fish over night on 9/25 showing symptoms almost immediately after moving to the 75?

Can I ask how you acclimated when moving the last 4 to the 75?

On 9/27/2021 at 5:14 PM, Janelle said:

I filled a cup w/ tap water and tested it using the 3 different tests.  I was wondering if maybe the test strip has been off this whole time and my PH numbers are actually lower than the strip is indicating.

That’s exactly what I’m thinking.  Which makes pH shock less likely but systemic stress from high pH (relatively high for the species but I’m not really sure how much weight to put into that) may still possible.

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On 9/27/2021 at 2:07 PM, Odd Duck said:

All that being said and back to the subject, the swimming weird and neuro symptoms sound like actual ammonia toxicosis vs only gill burns which will usually leave them gasping at the surface.  But maybe we have a combination of things happening that left your weaker fish right at the borderline of compromised, then the slightest little transient bump in ammonia caused symptoms and death?

@Odd Duck I think this sounds very likely.  Now that they are in the main tank I can tell they were not eating very well in the QT tank.  Once adding them to the main tank it seems like the other fish in there have encouraged them to actually eat.  I have never had Rams or cichlids for that matter, so I wasn't familiar with their appetites.  My swordtails, tetras, and Bala shark are down right pigs 🐷.

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On 9/27/2021 at 3:17 PM, Odd Duck said:

Did you test your parameters directly after meds week?  Meds can affect biofiltration. - I am sure I did, but did not write it down. 

I don’t know that keeping the sick fish in the 75 would have helped if it got that sick and died that fast.

So first fish died on or shortly after the 22nd (beginning of week 4) or maybe beginning of week 3 and next fish die on 9/20?  Then the last fish over night on 9/25 showing symptoms almost immediately after moving to the 75?  - The last fish to die looked iffy in QT, which is why I decided to move them.  I wanted to get them into a bigger body of water w/ more filtration. 

Can I ask how you acclimated when moving the last 4 to the 75? - Well...🙈 I scooped them up in a net and put them right into the 75 gal.  This was probably not the best idea.  But, you know what?  In everything I have read or watched from AC they don't specifically tell you how to move QT fish to the main tank.  So it never dawned on me that I should acclimate them as carefully as I did to put them into my QT tank.  If that makes sense.  Sometimes my extremely literal brain does not assume things all that well.  😆

@Odd Duck See above

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On 9/27/2021 at 5:20 PM, Janelle said:

@Odd Duck I think this sounds very likely.  Now that they are in the main tank I can tell they were not eating very well in the QT tank.  Once adding them to the main tank it seems like the other fish in there have encouraged them to actually eat.  I have never had Rams or cichlids for that matter, so I wasn't familiar with their appetites.  My swordtails, tetras, and Bala shark are down right pigs 🐷.

I think so many times it’s a combination of things that cause illness, especially in exotic pets (by exotic I mean not dogs, cats, or farm animals that have been better studied).  Husbandry is EVERYTHING in exotics and fish are so much more vulnerable since their environment is so very limited and solely controlled by the fish keeper (whether changes are intentional or not) and there are soooooooo many subtle and non-visible things that can go wrong.

I think that more fish likely come to us with liver or kidney damage than we realize.  Kidney cells are especially prone to damage by nitrogenous wastes being in excess in the system and the kidneys are the organs designed to eliminate that excess nitrogenous wastes.  They get overwhelmed beyond a certain level and cells start dying.  Then those toxic products build up in their system and cause worsening kidney failure, and there!s your vicious cycle that kills the fish weeks to months later.

Fish can also eliminate some nitrogenous wastes via the gills if the gills are healthy and the water is low enough in those nitrogenous compounds.  If there’s any breakdown in the system via damaged gills, excess nitrogenous products in the water, damage to kidney cells from ammonia tox from shipping, well . . . . . .

The liver is also involved in processing nitrogenous compounds but it’s taking them from the basic amino acids from digestion of food, building them into functional proteins, then moving the excess or unusable products to the blood stream to be removed by the kidneys.  Excess nitrogenous wastes make all the organs sick and reduce their function.  If the liver gets compromised enough, that can also start a descending spiral in the health of the animal

On 9/27/2021 at 5:33 PM, Janelle said:

@Odd Duck See above

I can’t even count the number of times I’ve put a fish directly from one of my tanks to another and almost never have a problem.  I almost never acclimate fish when I’m moving them from QT to their main tank.  As long as the temp is the same and I’ve been diligent in water changes with the same mix of water, I wouldn’t think twice about it.  I do have some tanks I use more RODI water instead of my straight up liquid rock, and I would (probably 🤷🏻‍♀️) take time to acclimate if I expected parameters to be significantly different.  But if the last guy was a bit iffy in QT, anything might have tipped him over the edge.

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@Odd Duck Thinking...as hobby aquarists who are buying fish to actually keep it would seem to make more sense to stabilize the fish, get them eating, then run them through QT meds.  I can see how in a fish store running that long game isn't cost effective.  However at home, its cost prohibitive to spend the money on fish and lose them.  Its also cost prohibitive to ignore the whole QT process and just take the risk of the new fish spreading disease to your community tank.  

What I love about this hobby is how slow moving things are, and I absolutely don't mind spending the extra time to take care of the fish better.  And while there are many many smart people who have paved the road before me I guess what I can take away from this is, I can tweak the process if I want! ☺️

And, hey! Thanks for the back & forth!  I really appreciate it!  I'm really new (10 months in) to the hobby and very much enjoy thoughtful conversations.

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On 9/27/2021 at 5:52 PM, Janelle said:

@Odd Duck Thinking...as hobby aquarists who are buying fish to actually keep it would seem to make more sense to stabilize the fish, get them eating, then run them through QT meds.  I can see how in a fish store running that long game isn't cost effective.  However at home, its cost prohibitive to spend the money on fish and lose them.  Its also cost prohibitive to ignore the whole QT process and just take the risk of the new fish spreading disease to your community tank.  

What I love about this hobby is how slow moving things are, and I absolutely don't mind spending the extra time to take care of the fish better.  And while there are many many smart people who have paved the road before me I guess what I can take away from this is, I can tweak the process if I want! ☺️

And, hey! Thanks for the back & forth!  I really appreciate it!  I'm really new (10 months in) to the hobby and very much enjoy thoughtful conversations.

I know this may be sacrilegious around here, but I don’t do meds unless needed (and I spend every single work day giving and prescribing meds).  I absolutely quarantine and fairly recently decided to increase my quarantine time after a round of Ich hit my 100 gallon.  I got lucky and heat, a UV sterilizer, and low dose salt did the trick.  I now have some Ich-X on the shelf, but the fish started to improve before the meds arrived so I didn’t use the Ich-X.

I did deworm all my pea puffers after losing some at the beginning.  I think some may have possibly been from parasites but I think mostly it was about a specific pea puffer being a jerk and a bully.  I am also deworming my orange lasers since I’m pretty sure the ones I got were wild caught at the price I paid.

It is all a learning process.  I’ve been keeping fish since 1975, have a very strong science background and am nerd to the max, but I’m still learning, and sometimes relearning stuff I used to know!

 

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On 9/27/2021 at 3:48 PM, Janelle said:

@Torrey & @dasaltemelosguy your questions regarding my PH got me thinking...below doesn't really explain the drop in PH but, I did put the Java Fern and 1 catapa leaf into the tank when the week of meds was over and I had done a water change. 

Since AC came out w/ their test strips I have abandoned other forms of testing, and having only been using test strips.  I just did some comparisons on my tap water and decided to use 2 additional tests to compare the results.

Here is what I noticed:
Strips:  8.4
Vivosun PH Meter:  7.04  (I re-calibrated my meter and my before/after numbers remained the same)
Master Test:  7.4

I am not really concerned about the difference in numbers from the Vivosun meter & master test because chasing numbers that small will drive a person crazy.  However, I am really concerned with the test strips.  (I will have to send AC an email for feedback). I have included 2 pictures, what level do you see on the strips?  Side comment:  the KH and GH are also so hard for me to figure out.  To me the GH is nowhere close to the colors provided so I just figure its 300+.  

Thank you both for your thoughts on this, this is my favorite part of the hobby!  The detective work!

00945670-28D8-45FC-8D36-AC5AEEA80B70_1_201_a.jpeg

25583B48-816A-4C0E-9DF9-DE74B5BEF68A.png

I read 10 nitrate, 0 nitrite, 🤷‍♂️hardness, 7.2 pH? 7.6 pH?

API looks like 7.4 pH, possibly 7.6 pH.

Time is of the essence on reading the test strips, I have discovered. I noticed that the results kind of bleed out if I don't read fast enough. 

(I would personally use the low pH API drops to confirm that pH)

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@Torrey Now see…the test strip’s color looks a bit pink to me which is why I’m thinking 8.4.  🤪  I know color through pictures is really difficult to translate which is why I haven’t pursued messaging AC.   I am religious when it comes to reading them on time. I set my stop watch. 😆
 

The low API test is definitely 7.6. 
 

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