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Am I being Gaslit?


Jcrizzo12
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Hey folks, for some background, I just finished about a 6 week fishless cycle using fishless fuel on a 29 gallon tank, current parameters below

ph: 6.6-6.8 , Ammonia 0ppm,  Nitrites 0ppm,  Nitrates ~5ppm, temp 80 degrees

I have brought AM to 2ppm and confirmed it and Nitrites drops to 0 within 24 hours, its heavily planted and plants are growing and looking great. So i think to myself "Sweet lets get some bad boys in this tank". For reference I really liked Cory's video of the South American trio of fish with Hatchets on top, Cardinals in the middle, and a breeding pair of Apisto's on the bottom layer. 

Went o my LFS to inquire on which order I should try and add these fish, they told me they liked the idea a lot and they recommended the Cardinals first, then Hatchets, followed by Apistos last. Seemed fair to me so I picked up a school of about 10 cardinals, got them acclimated pretty well, and added to the tank.

This was Monday, Now as of today I am down to 6 Cardinals. One died the day after on Tuesday which I figured could be stress/acclimation not taking to the fish well. Wednesday I see one fish off by his lonesome not wanting to school and breathing rapidly. On further inspection It looks to most certainly have Ich. At this point I begin treating the display tank with Ich Z since they are the only inhabitants, and wake up this morning to see 2 more have fallen.

Keep in mind this whole time I have been testing water parameters twice a day and still all readings look completely fine. So I call the LFS again just to inquire how long these fish have been there before I picked them up to see if they or any of the other fish they shared a tank with showed any signs of illness. Its at THIS point they tell me adding Cardinals as the first fish in this process was a bad idea, and they then tell me my whole plan sounds like a bad idea, and that they recommend I should use Mollies or Platies first in this tank to get it going well, and then maybe look at my future plan later down the line, even though like I've said, my parameters all seem completely fine 

 

While it seems like decent advice, am I being thrown for a ringer here? its been really disheartening and I came pretty close to saying screw it and giving up on fishkeeping again today when i really don't want to, any advice would be greatly appreciated 

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Yes you are being thrown for a ride. First off recommending mollies and platies to cycle a tank after a fishless cycle is not only unecessary but cruel seeing as you wouldn't be keeping the fish after the cycle. It's the same as people saying just buy a goldfish to cycle a tank. That's the type of advice that has no place in the aquarium trade. I digress

 

Cardinal tetra are extremely hardy fish but I believe most are still wild caught so as you were asking, rightly, before if the fish had been at the store long, this was the correct way to do things. Too many moves are stressful to the fish and why if LFS do not have quarantine tanks, they should mark display tanks as NFS (not for sale) as they watch them for any symptoms of stress or disease. 

 

As for your order of doing things adding your dither fish (hatchets and cardinals) first is best as they can establish territories and pecking orders among their own ranks without the stress of a cichlid bullying them around. 

 

Don't give up on this hobby I assure you the initial stress is worth the reward of having 30 different personalities interact in your slice of nature. 

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Don't give up! It can be disheartening at times, but once you have everything balanced and humming, I am certain that you will have a lot of enjoyment.

Don't beat yourself up about the cardinals. I have had similar situations happen to me before, where 30-40% of a fish species that I bought died off in QT. In fact, about 12 days ago I bought 10 cardinals and treated them in a QT tank. One died within two days. The rest are okay. 

I hope it all works out for you!

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It’s not about how hard you fall it’s about how you get back up. I know it’s cliche but it’s true like @Biotope Biologistand @Zenzosaid don’t get discouraged. We all have set backs use it as a learning experience. It’s not always water parameters that stress fish and causes ick- is it a high traffic area , kids running banging at tank, loud tv close, shadows are a real threat to them, it could be a lot of things. Watch all parameters not just water. Do more research especially on acclimation did you float the bag then plop and drop, drip acclimate, ect…

keep your head up it is well worth the hard work.

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I agree...don't give up at all. You got this!

One quick observation:

You didn't post your GH or KH. Do you know what they are? It may be irrelevant, or it may point to a disparity between your water and the water the fish were coming from.

Also, it is peace of mind to know that your KH is higher than zero, as no KH could result in a PH crash/rapid swing, etc.

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On 9/23/2021 at 6:29 PM, Jcrizzo12 said:

Hey folks, for some background, I just finished about a 6 week fishless cycle using fishless fuel on a 29 gallon tank, current parameters below

ph: 6.6-6.8 , Ammonia 0ppm,  Nitrites 0ppm,  Nitrates ~5ppm, temp 80 degrees

I have brought AM to 2ppm and confirmed it and Nitrites drops to 0 within 24 hours, its heavily planted and plants are growing and looking great. So i think to myself "Sweet lets get some bad boys in this tank". For reference I really liked Cory's video of the South American trio of fish with Hatchets on top, Cardinals in the middle, and a breeding pair of Apisto's on the bottom layer. 

Went o my LFS to inquire on which order I should try and add these fish, they told me they liked the idea a lot and they recommended the Cardinals first, then Hatchets, followed by Apistos last. Seemed fair to me so I picked up a school of about 10 cardinals, got them acclimated pretty well, and added to the tank.

This was Monday, Now as of today I am down to 6 Cardinals. One died the day after on Tuesday which I figured could be stress/acclimation not taking to the fish well. Wednesday I see one fish off by his lonesome not wanting to school and breathing rapidly. On further inspection It looks to most certainly have Ich. At this point I begin treating the display tank with Ich Z since they are the only inhabitants, and wake up this morning to see 2 more have fallen.

Keep in mind this whole time I have been testing water parameters twice a day and still all readings look completely fine. So I call the LFS again just to inquire how long these fish have been there before I picked them up to see if they or any of the other fish they shared a tank with showed any signs of illness. Its at THIS point they tell me adding Cardinals as the first fish in this process was a bad idea, and they then tell me my whole plan sounds like a bad idea, and that they recommend I should use Mollies or Platies first in this tank to get it going well, and then maybe look at my future plan later down the line, even though like I've said, my parameters all seem completely fine 

 

While it seems like decent advice, am I being thrown for a ringer here? its been really disheartening and I came pretty close to saying screw it and giving up on fishkeeping again today when i really don't want to, any advice would be greatly appreciated 

In my experience as a newbie this year just because it's an independent local fish store doesn't mean they have a clue! Everyone has their own experience and prejudices etc and perhaps your store isn't particularly familiar with fishless cycling. 

Based on what you described your tank should be ready for fish and I don't see how they can suggest your whole plan is a bad idea, it's a very good plan! Sounds like they might be getting a bit defensive about their fish dying really. 

Like someone else touched on there's other things you can do to help reduce stress on new fish, turning lights off and keeping things quiet and stuff like that - I can't offer any advice with treating Ich etc though I have no experience of it yet. 

Maybe try the hatchet fish first next time see if they do better? (The cynic in me says maybe try a different store too but it's probably not really their fault either just one of those things) I think we all lose newly added fish from time to time, since I started my tank 6ish months ago I've lost an endler, a panda cory, a hillstream loach and an otocinclus. Almost one of each group of fish I've added I've lost and I don't even know why any of them died as nothing obvious and I've just been lucky the rest have survived so far. Don't give up! 

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On 9/23/2021 at 1:43 PM, Jcrizzo12 said:

Thank you all for the input and kind words. I'm currently getting a QT tank setup and running and the LFS agreed they will credit me back any fish that I lost/lose up until Sunday. I will keep at it until I get it right 

@KentFishFanUK identified the most likely driver for the phone conversation: defensive over fish dying.

Having a QT will make things infinitely easier in the long run, and if you want to make your life even easier, get an Aquarium Co-op sponge filter (in addition to the filter you have on your QT), and when the QT is empty, hide the sponge filter behind some plants in your display tank.

This way, you always have a cycled filter ready to go in an emergency. 

Dither fish are schooling fish, because schooling helps keep their anxiety down. Which means by nature, they are skittish and easily stressed.... which means it doesn't take much to push their limits, and then they get sick.

You identified the ich rapidly, that means you are observant, and being observant is literally the most critical skill for successful fish keeping. 

Patience is the second most important skill. 

Once you have 2 species of fish in the tank, their anxiety will go down, especially if people in the house respect the fish' needs, and don't do things near the tank to add to fish anxiety. 

 

You got this!

And you also have a decent LFS, that's doing right by you (except for the one phone call... so, 66.666% doing right by you?🤔)

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