New folks entering the hobby

[Desktop Aquatics]

Gate keeping is a problem but it often blown out of proportion in my humble opinion. As a new hobbyist that started in march I have not had many bad experiences and often take advice with a grain of salt. I have experience in other exotic pet hobbies as I bred dart frogs in high school and in college. I also made research a large part of my hobby before I even considered setting up a fish tank. I had been curious about fish keeping for 10 years before I owned a fish tank so I might be in the minority of 'new' fish keepers. I think people need to just research before getting into this hobby it would prevent alot of the gate keeping people often observe. 

 

[Sandra the fish rookie]

On 9/23/2021 at 9:50 AM, Stacy Z said:

I remember when we had a tank as a child, there was no fish-less cycling, no bacteria starters, less medicine. I thought I knew when I started up this year but I got schooled quickly! 

My big brother had a 75G with 3 baby piranha's. He had a HUGE filter, gravel and that was it. He would do these huge water changes every week. I remember the fish just having enough water to move in. I never saw water conditioners, or anything for that matter. They graduated to a 100G tank and the 75 became the feeder holding tank. I have no memory of discussion of the nitrogen cycle, water conditioner, etc. So I jumped in both feet and blind as a BAT! I started in the right direction with plants, etc. but did not have ANY of the RIGHT tools I needed. The large chain store did not tell me when I purchased my first aquarium kit, that I needed a test kit to ensure water quality.  I figured, well he did it.. looked simple enough.. NOPE! Not at all. 

When I started losing my fish, and becoming frustrated I reached out to some FB peeps one who immediately took me under her wing and brought me here. I would show her EVERY test.. and she showed me how to read it, and what to do. She is the reason I didn't quit! 4 tanks in, it was that one person that did not make me feel like an IDIOT.. admitted that its a tricky hobby but if I stick to it I will love it. 

I think the buddy system ( which is what I feel this forum is) of people that don't SHAME but say.. okay here is what to do, and here is what to expect and here is what I have done in that situation. sharing lessons, tips, advise is KEY. Education and support is KEY! 

Went in blind but now I see. I may not know much, but I know A LOT more NOW than I did. Because of this forum, and going to the right places to get validated and sound information. 

[Jeff]

On 9/23/2021 at 2:24 PM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

 

4. The thread becomes more about the discussion between the experienced folks than trying to answer the beginner's original question

5. Beginner feels overwhelmed, and if they reply, they politely say thanks and then bugger off

 

Yes. I've seen this time, and time again on forums. 

[Patrick_G]

On 9/23/2021 at 11:24 AM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

3. Thread devolves into a discussion about the relative merits of the differing advice (with various levels of courtesy depending on the fourm - this place is pretty good about that though!)

I’ll admit to actively ignoring a thread when it gets into the weeds, but on this forum it seems like most folks stick to trying to engage with the person asking the question instead of bickering with other forum members. 

[Stacy Z]

On 9/23/2021 at 10:08 AM, gardenman said:

For the sake of the hobby and the fish, something simple like a few drops of Fritzyme7 Turbostart added to the bag water for every fish sold would be beneficial. At least the new tank (or an older tank for that matter) would have some bacteria that way. A dose of Prime added wouldn't hurt anything either in case the new fish buyer didn't neutralize their chlorine or already had too much ammonia or nitrites/nitrate for the new fish. A larger retail establishment can buy those items in large quantities and the cost per bag could be minimal but improve the chances of the fish living and the buyer being happy. Selling healthy fish that have been quarantined would be nice also.  Maybe adding a floating plant like frogbit or dwarf water lettuce to each bag would be smart also. It's absurdly prolific stuff and cheap for a retailer to grow themselves. "Would you like some frogbit or a dwarf water lettuce with your fish? It's free and can help your fish."

In short, fishkeeping comes down to keeping healthy bacteria in decent water. Do you need to know the ins and outs of the entire nitrogen cycle in detail? Not really. Do you need to run a hundred tests a week to monitor things? Not really. Once people get into the hobby and want to learn more, the information is out there.  But do most people need to know all of that? No. The right store doing things right, could make fishkeeping largely bulletproof for all but the most idiotic hobbyists. Add some bacterial starter to each bag of fish sold along with something like Prime to neutralize any ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates the tank already has, and most hobbyists would get off to an okay start.

That’s might not work adding to bag as I don’t put bag water in my tanks. To much ammonia from transport. I understand your thought but not possible. 

[Atitagain]

Maybe my first reply wasn’t in the true nature of answering the original post question. It was more relative to the problem not solutions. I do want to see changes and a more informed community. It’s just hard to see past the corporations that fuel this industry.

I think this forum is a excellent start and ACO as a whole. Teaching to c.a.r.e. And maybe if we try to spread that into our LFS and box store letting them know that’s what we demand as customers. Maybe change can happen.

[KentFishFanUK]

This is a great thread/topic so kudos for starting it. 

People who want to start a tank for the first time because they have seen them elsewhere and been inspired or seen the fish and get excited to try it etc will always need help/advice and I think it's important to strike a balance between curbing their expectations without curbing their enthusiasm. Of course being friendly and giving good advice is a given as well. 

Perhaps us Nerms should think up and promote a 'beginner tank and method' to recommend to interested parties - something as cheap, fool proof, easy and quick as possible to give them a taste for it before they get bombarded with the whole "well you need to know about the nitrogen cycle/pH/testing kits/GH and KH/TDS/med trios/active substrates and don't even think of getting a fish for 6+ weeks and don't forget to quarantine and have you chosen which $300 canister filter you want yet or are you going full on Walstad?" 

I'm sure we could come up with an agreed upon easy to understand and cheap set up/starting method - we could call it "the Nerm method" and promote it every where we can and suck in some new hobbyists haha! 

[NanoNano]

In late...but random ideas:

* The hobby is getting inundated with products of various quality from all over the world and is really crying out for some sort of organization that maintains accepted standards (like Underwriters Labs for electrical devices) and gives a "stamp of approval" to items that meet criteria for safety, construction, performance, etc.  Would love to see something like an "American Aquatics Association" or "International Aquatics Association" formed to drive levels of quality and standards into products.  My bet is that people (especially beginners) would be willing to pay a premium for "approved" products.

* In a similar vein- would like to see formal breeding standards (and ethics) become part of the hobby.  I see a lot of posts across the internet from rank amateurs looking "to make some extra cash from the hobby by breeding fish" or simply "I wanna see if I get these fish to breed".  As others in this thread have noted,  we're seeing strains of fish (e.g. Guppies and Bettas) that are getting weak and disease prone at an alarming rate due to inbreeding.   Dog, cat, etc owners seem to generally agree that uncontrolled breeding and/or "puppy mill" type breeding isn't OK (how often have we seen the "spay and neuter your pets" message?) ...unfortunately the majority of this hobby seems to either not comprehend that's what's going on or is choosing to ignore it.

* Step one to me for any newbie is "understand your tap water"- it's natural parameters will dictate which species will do their best with a minimum of needing to become a "mixologist" of additives, buffers, supplements etc.  I'm still floored that I haven't come across a pet store yet that gives out free dip strips to people so they can test their water before buying fish to help guide them on which fish will do best in their water.

* When I was a kid there was clothing called "Garanimals" (actually - it looks like they're back) which had a system where when you matched symbols on the tags of pants, shirts, etc. you could be assured that you wouldn't be creating a fashion faux pas.   Seems like the hobby is crying out for a system where newbies can easily match fish species A with compatible fish food A with compatible tank size A, etc.  to similarly remove confusion, mystery, and disapproving feedback.

* Dealers could do a lot better job of bundling packages for new fish owners.  Not just full aquariums, but the accessories.  Just bought a Betta?  Here's a package with a net sized right, water conditioner, food, treats etc.  I was in a pet store the other day and came across a 7 or 8 year old kid and parents that were buying his first Betta and they were completely overwhelmed by all of the different food choices.  They still had yet to repeat the process to pick out conditioner, etc.

Edited September 23, 2021 by NanoNano

[OnlyGenusCaps]

I fear I may have opened a kettle of fish (so to speak) with my earlier reply.

On 9/23/2021 at 2:25 PM, Atitagain said:

Maybe my first reply wasn’t in the true nature of answering the original post question.

I liked your first reply.  Not sure if anyone has the answer.  In truth, there are probably a lot of little things.  I hope by including you in my reply, I didn't cause frustration, or make you feel targeted.  If so, know it wasn't my intention, and I apologize if it was the case.  I genuinely liked and appreciated what you had to say, which is why I included you. in my reply

On 9/23/2021 at 2:06 PM, Patrick_G said:

but on this forum it seems like most folks stick to trying to engage with the person asking the question instead of bickering with other forum members.

I certainly didn't mean to seem as though I were criticizing the folks on this forum.  And definitely not in particular.  But I will say that this happens here too.  And I firmly believe it is born of people who care.  I, too, have begun to shy away from beginner question threads.  I my case, it is largely because I am want to engage in the deeper/more complex discussions, which probably doesn't help the OP.  I'm part of the problem there.  That said, I am glad those discussion are given space to occur, as I not only enjoy them but learn from them.  Indeed, there is a person on this forum with whom I suspect observers would say I've butted heads with several times.  Those interactions have been enjoyable for me, and I've grown to greatly respect this other person though those discussions - though I still don't always agree with them.  😉 

It's a funny thing.  In most of life when you need help, it's finding it that is the challenge.  Here the problem can be the opposite, so many good people, who genuinely want to to their absolute best for the other person.  I think it's a good problem to have. 

[Patrick_G]

On 9/23/2021 at 2:58 PM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

certainly didn't mean to seem as though I were criticizing the folks on this forum. 

No worries, I meant to sound supportive of this part of your post, but phrased it awkwardly. 
 

 

On 9/23/2021 at 12:06 PM, Patrick_G said:

with various levels of courtesy depending on the fourm - this place is pretty good about that though!)

 

[Jeff]

On 9/23/2021 at 4:51 PM, NanoNano said:

* Dealers could do a lot better job of bundling packages for new fish owners.  Not just full aquariums, but the accessories.  Just bought a Betta?  Here's a package with a net sized right, water conditioner, food, treats etc.  I was in a pet store the other day and came across a 7 or 8 year old kid and parents that were buying his first Betta and they were completely overwhelmed by all of the different food choices.  They still had yet to repeat the process to pick out conditioner, etc.

This would be such a huge step in the right direction. It literally would make a world of difference. 
 

When you're starting something, you want it as simple as possible, right?

Far too often, the items included in the all in one aquarium packs aren't nearly correct. AND they have pictures of fish on the box / packaging that have no business being in the size aquarium that's being offered. 

[Jimfish98]

"Experts"  are a big reason why folks have a hard time getting started or staying in. The absolutes and such go way too far too often. Few examples...

Go to any reef site and ask "where do I start" and you get a dozen responses saying "BRS 52 weeks on youtube" where you are told everything you need to be successful and these same experts say the videos are accurate and you must do it. People see these $300-$1000 systems being added to control one aspect of the tank and are instantly backing out over the money. Some can afford it or a modified version and move forward being told they will succeed with this stuff. Most have issues or fail and the same experts tell them they got the wrong stuff, didn't test right, etc. It becomes an attack and a lot of the new reefers are closing tanks in a year or less. 

Had a personal one about 11 years ago going to a koi site and being told my pond plans would fail. I would never succeed with the set up, never show fish, never grow anything large. Sadly it was driven by a well known koi keeper and show judge. Had I listened I would have walked away but thankfully I am too stubborn. Did it my way, found a less judging forum, and made him hand me a trophy at a koi show a few years later with a fish pushing 3ft. The supporting folks at the second one is what got me to that point. 

[Guppysnail]

On 9/23/2021 at 4:51 PM, NanoNano said:

When I was a kid there was clothing called "Garanimals" (actually - it looks like they're back) which had a system where when you matched symbols on the tags of pants, shirts, etc. you could be assured that you wouldn't be creating a fashion faux pas.   Seems like the hobby is crying out for a system where newbies can easily match fish species A with compatible fish food A with compatible tank size A, etc.  to similarly remove confusion, mystery, and disapproving feedback.

* Dealers could do a lot better job of bundling packages for new fish owners.  Not just full aquariums, but the accessories.  Just bought a Betta?  Here's a package with a net sized right, water conditioner, food, treats etc.  I was in a pet store the other day and came across a 7 or 8 year old kid and parents that were buying his first Betta and they were completely overwhelmed by all of the different food choices.  They still had yet to repeat the process to pick out conditioner, etc.

I agree. I think some of the less scrupulous companies make it vague knowing people overbuy unnecessary products to the companies monetary benefit. Yes my younger brother loved his garanimals and yes that would be a fantastic marketing strategy that would almost guarantee beginners would go to that company for ease of understanding.  Included with your tank would be an easily understandable how to cycle your tank before you add fish….😁 

[Atitagain]

On 9/23/2021 at 5:58 PM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

I fear I may have opened a kettle of fish (so to speak) with my earlier reply.

I liked your first reply.  Not sure if anyone has the answer.  In truth, there are probably a lot of little things.  I hope by including you in my reply, I didn't cause frustration, or make you feel targeted.  If so, know it wasn't my intention, and I apologize if it was the case.  I genuinely liked and appreciated what you had to say, which is why I included you. in my reply

I certainly didn't mean to seem as though I were criticizing the folks on this forum.  And definitely not in particular.  But I will say that this happens here too.  And I firmly believe it is born of people who care.  I, too, have begun to shy away from beginner question threads.  I my case, it is largely because I am want to engage in the deeper/more complex discussions, which probably doesn't help the OP.  I'm part of the problem there.  That said, I am glad those discussion are given space to occur, as I not only enjoy them but learn from them.  Indeed, there is a person on this forum with whom I suspect observers would say I've butted heads with several times.  Those interactions have been enjoyable for me, and I've grown to greatly respect this other person though those discussions - though I still don't always agree with them.  😉 

It's a funny thing.  In most of life when you need help, it's finding it that is the challenge.  Here the problem can be the opposite, so many good people, who genuinely want to to their absolute best for the other person.  I think it's a good problem to have. 

 No worries at all. I just reread the OP and was thinking of my reply, they were asking IMO what are some possible solutions to the beginner losing interest. Most posters had good ideas ( this is where I thought I might of/ could offend people) good ideas “in theory” but…(see my original post) 

I was just pointing out some of the hurdles that are to be jumped. But didn’t offer any form of positive solutions I absolutely should of said (see my second post) in my original post.

As to what I’m taking as your point, debate to me is one of our greatest ways of communicating. And I encourage people to disagree with me and communicate those differences so I can see more sides than just mine. I like to learn from people not just be told I’m right or wrong with no reasoning behind it either way. I only took your reply as debate, absolutely no apologies needed.

[Intuos]

I love this discussion as I have recently helped a colleague setup their first tank. They have wanted a tank for a while but have always been put off because of talking to me about it with them (have apparently made it sound complicated and not always as accessible as it is). I have been keeping fish for the last 30ish years with varying degrees of success at times and know that there isn't a right or wrong way to start a tank, with so many variables it can be daunting for newbies. It was only when they said they wanted a tank about a month ago, and really started to talk, I realised that as an "experienced" fish keeper I could be potentially be hindering their journey. They way I helped was to ask very specific questions 

1)where do you want the tank. 

2)what size is the space. 

3)what sort of fish have caught your eye. 

4)would you like real plants. 

5)what is your budget. 

With that information I found I was able to point them in a direction that was more workable for them personally (also went round and tested their tap water),as I have done both fish in and fishless cycling. 

This is definitely the best forum I have seen for people who want to share their own experiences with less of the bickering, but can see how we could possibly be putting newbies off. 

One thing I would like to see is a sticky section where such a key area of the hobby is covered (with a set of questions that allows others to assess whether their experience will be of help based on the answers). 

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 9/23/2021 at 5:02 PM, Patrick_G said:

No worries,

On 9/23/2021 at 5:44 PM, Atitagain said:

No worries at all.

It seems that against all odds, for once I didn't make things worse.  There is a first time for everything!  😆  In all seriousness, I'm glad to hear it.  Thank you both for letting me know!

On 9/23/2021 at 5:44 PM, Atitagain said:

debate to me is one of our greatest ways of communicating

Great!  I look forward to debating topics with you.  Now we just need to find something we disagree about.  🤪 

[Odd Duck]

On 9/23/2021 at 7:06 PM, Intuos said:

One thing I would like to see is a sticky section where such a key area of the hobby is covered (with a set of questions that allows others to assess whether their experience will be of help based on the answers). 

I think this is an extremely good idea.  And I think your basic questions to your friend would be a great way to structure it.

[KentFishFanUK]

On 9/24/2021 at 1:06 AM, Intuos said:

I love this discussion as I have recently helped a colleague setup their first tank. They have wanted a tank for a while but have always been put off because of talking to me about it with them (have apparently made it sound complicated and not always as accessible as it is). I have been keeping fish for the last 30ish years with varying degrees of success at times and know that there isn't a right or wrong way to start a tank, with so many variables it can be daunting for newbies. It was only when they said they wanted a tank about a month ago, and really started to talk, I realised that as an "experienced" fish keeper I could be potentially be hindering their journey. They way I helped was to ask very specific questions 

1)where do you want the tank. 

2)what size is the space. 

3)what sort of fish have caught your eye. 

4)would you like real plants. 

5)what is your budget. 

With that information I found I was able to point them in a direction that was more workable for them personally (also went round and tested their tap water),as I have done both fish in and fishless cycling. 

This is definitely the best forum I have seen for people who want to share their own experiences with less of the bickering, but can see how we could possibly be putting newbies off. 

One thing I would like to see is a sticky section where such a key area of the hobby is covered (with a set of questions that allows others to assess whether their experience will be of help based on the answers). 

 

On 9/24/2021 at 5:01 AM, Odd Duck said:

I think this is an extremely good idea.  And I think your basic questions to your friend would be a great way to structure it.

Agreed! Sticky section for 'beginner FAQs' would be a great start, somewhere to point new hobbyists towards

[Hobbit]

So… *bashful shuffling* I’m somewhat of a writer and I’m actually working on a book for kids about getting their first fish. Hoping to self-publish it one day. Drafting got derailed when my husband broke his hip and I lost all my free time/energy. But I’m really excited about this project! I don’t think there are many resources that cater to 8-12 year old kids—the age where they’re likely to get their first pet and ready to absorb information like sponges. Parents need something to hand to their kids when their kids say, “I want a fish!” I’ll definitely bring it here and ask for feedback when I’m done.

[gardenman]

On 9/24/2021 at 8:53 AM, Hobbit said:

So… *bashful shuffling* I’m somewhat of a writer and I’m actually working on a book for kids about getting their first fish. Hoping to self-publish it one day. Drafting got derailed when my husband broke his hip and I lost all my free time/energy. But I’m really excited about this project! I don’t think there are many resources that cater to 8-12 year old kids—the age where they’re likely to get their first pet and ready to absorb information like sponges. Parents need something to hand to their kids when their kids say, “I want a fish!” I’ll definitely bring it here and ask for feedback when I’m done.

I've self-published fifteen books so far and it's not that hard. There are some very useful tools to use. One is Grammarly. It'll catch common issues and help you to correct them. I just use the free version because I'm cheap, but it can really help you. (This website doesn't support it so I make more typos here than on other sites.) If you're using Word to write the book then Amazon has a Kindle plug-in that will help you format your book for the Kindle e-book format. It's a very handy little plug-in. Your target audience (8-12 year olds) will be smartphone and tablet oriented more than "real book" oriented so using the Kindle formatting template is smarter. Kindle Direct Publishing (KDP) lets you publish in e-book, paperback, or even hardcover now. If you sell your book exclusively through KDP they even let you do a five day free giveaway every 90 days for that title in e-book form and you could coordinate a giveaway with local or even national retailers to get it out there and circulating. I do a free giveaway of one of my books every Wednesday or Thursday running through Sunday/Monday. 

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 9/24/2021 at 7:53 AM, Hobbit said:

I’m actually working on a book for kids about getting their first fish. Hoping to self-publish it one day.

Where do I pre-order it?!  😃

[KentFishFanUK]

On 9/24/2021 at 1:53 PM, Hobbit said:

So… *bashful shuffling* I’m somewhat of a writer and I’m actually working on a book for kids about getting their first fish. Hoping to self-publish it one day. Drafting got derailed when my husband broke his hip and I lost all my free time/energy. But I’m really excited about this project! I don’t think there are many resources that cater to 8-12 year old kids—the age where they’re likely to get their first pet and ready to absorb information like sponges. Parents need something to hand to their kids when their kids say, “I want a fish!” I’ll definitely bring it here and ask for feedback when I’m done.

This is amazing! Would love to read it when done and offer feedback ("yay I'm helping" ☺️). 

You'd most likely find that writing it for that age would inadvertently create a good guide for adult beginners anyway. 

[Hobbit]

Thanks @gardenman! That’s awesome that you’ve published 15 books! Are they about gardening or fish or something else? 

@KentFishFanUK thank you so much! I’ll certainly take you up on that if the project comes to fruition! And I do hope it will help adults as well as kids.

 

[gardenman]

On 9/24/2021 at 6:03 PM, Hobbit said:

Thanks @gardenman! That’s awesome that you’ve published 15 books! Are they about gardening or fish or something else? 

@KentFishFanUK thank you so much! I’ll certainly take you up on that if the project comes to fruition! And I do hope it will help adults as well as kids.

 

Mostly fiction. One of my novels made the semifinals in the 2012 Amazon Breakthrough Novel Awards. Another was picked up by Jason Chen for his political thriller StoryBundle in 2016. Writing is fun. I've got a novel and short story entered in this year's UK Storyteller contest. I'm proofing a novel now that I'll be publishing sometime before Christmas. The right tools make it easier to be a writer these days. I've got 77 reviews on Goodreads with an average rating of 4.36 out of five. I don't sell a lot of books, less than $2,000 since 2016, but it's fun and I like doing it.

[sairving]

On 9/23/2021 at 3:51 PM, NanoNano said:

Step one to me for any newbie is "understand your tap water"- it's natural parameters will dictate which species will do their best with a minimum of needing to become a "mixologist" of additives, buffers, supplements etc.  I'm still floored that I haven't come across a pet store yet that gives out free dip strips to people so they can test their water before buying fish to help guide them on which fish will do best in their water.

People in my area are either on city water or a private well.  My lfs will ask people if they have city water or well water.  Depending on the answer, employees will then direct people towards or away from certain fish.  The internet isn't always too going to say, "Neon tetras do not thrive in well water.  Especially hard well water."  Which, if you have well water around here, it's going to be hard. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by sairving