Fishless cycle?

[Oreganoodle]

I had a tank for about 6 years when I was younger, so I'm not a total newbie. I decided to start a tank up for my daughter who just learned about fish at school. I don't have a great local store anywhere near me, so PetSmart was my only option. I made the mistake of listening to them when they suggested just filling the tank so the way instead of starting small or doing a fishless cycle. Needless to say I'm starting over. I tested twice a day, and watched a cycle. I'm not sure if I lost the fish to a disease (two dead danios had red gills, and the pleco who died was pretty white). I'm going to bleach and scrub the tank, then start over and go slowly this time. Thoughts/advice on a fishless cycle?

[Zenzo]

Many of us have done fishless cycles as well as with fish. I have had good experiences with both. The key to having fish right away is to have a fair amount of live plants in the aquarium at the beginning. This does a couple of things:

1. Most likely the plants will have some beneficial bacteria on them or in the rock wool that they came in, so this will help jumpstart your bacteria.

2. The plants will help absorb the waste produced by the fish, making it less harmful to the fish.

If you know of anyone that has an established fish tank, getting a small bucket with some old filter material or yucky/dirty water from their filter or substrate will do wonders in having your tank ready for fish.

My advice to many beginners is to air on the side of caution though, and do a fishless cycle (just to be sure and to avoid a situation like you just had). 

I don't think that you need to bleach the tank though. I would just start over from where you are. 

[Guppysnail]

Order your plants from Aquarium coop. Place plant pot and rock wool directly in the tank do not rinse. They are heavy with beneficial bacteria and you get beautiful healthy plants as well 2 for one bonus 😁

[Samanthabea]

Sounds like their gills got burned either by chlorine or amonia 

The pleco I'm not sure one of mine died and looked like that when I was trying to start a chiclid tank and it crashed

[Oreganoodle]

On 9/20/2021 at 9:58 PM, Samanthabea said:

Sounds like their gills got burned either by chlorine or amonia 

The pleco I'm not sure one of mine died and looked like that when I was trying to start a chiclid tank and it crashed

 Even though I tested before adding fish and there was 0 chlorine, and I tested 1 (sometimes 2x) a day for amonia/nitrite/nitrate?

On 9/20/2021 at 9:48 PM, Zenzo said:

Many of us have done fishless cycles as well as with fish. I have had good experiences with both. The key to having fish right away is to have a fair amount of live plants in the aquarium at the beginning. This does a couple of things:

1. Most likely the plants will have some beneficial bacteria on them or in the rock wool that they came in, so this will help jumpstart your bacteria.

2. The plants will help absorb the waste produced by the fish, making it less harmful to the fish.

If you know of anyone that has an established fish tank, getting a small bucket with some old filter material or yucky/dirty water from their filter or substrate will do wonders in having your tank ready for fish.

My advice to many beginners is to air on the side of caution though, and do a fishless cycle (just to be sure and to avoid a situation like you just had). 

I don't think that you need to bleach the tank though. I would just start over from where you are. 

Why not bleach? Other than it brings me back to the very beginning?

 

[Tihshho]

On 9/20/2021 at 10:05 PM, Oreganoodle said:

Why not bleach? Other than it brings me back to the very beginning?

Because the issue doesn't sound parasitic or contagious. Red gills seem more like an issue with ammonia poisoning. In the case of starting over, doing the cycle again from scratch should nix the need for bleach. 

[Samanthabea]

Going to high in livestock to quickly creates a new cycle it overloads the tank I did this with snails on my saltwater tank 

Only reason I caught it was i kept testing and all of a sudden everything was out of wack

How many exactly did you add to what size of tank

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 9/20/2021 at 8:11 PM, Oreganoodle said:

Thoughts/advice on a fishless cycle?

I've been keeping aquariums for decades.  I only recently did my first fishless cycle because of quirks of the type of setup I was doing.  I think fish-in cycling is easier, but here is my advice if you want to go the fishless route: 

• Sounds like you have water testing supplies - great!  You are already off to a good start.
• Get the filter set up along with any hardscape (rocks, gravel, sand, wood, etc.)
• Don't add fish or plants
• Buy Dr. Tim's bacteria and ammonia as a combo.
• Follow the instructions for use in fishless cycling

That's pretty much it.  Get the tank set up for the bacteria first, then plant it and stock it (add fish, snails, shrimp, etc.).  I've not loved fishless cycling in the past, but once I learned that the plants can interfere with setting up the bacteria, and kept them out, it wasn't hard at all.  I can now add some ammonia to the tank, watch it disappear after several hours, and then the nitrites go away after quite a few more hours (nitrite bacteria are slower to establish and break stuff down).  If you want to give it a go, that's all it took when I did it successfully.  Good luck! 

[Hobbit]

On 9/21/2021 at 7:20 AM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

once I learned that the plants can interfere with setting up the bacteria, and kept them out, it wasn't hard at all.

Oh, really?? I thought plants helped the cycle because they bring in bacteria and help absorb nutrients/nitrates.

My advice for a fishless cycle would be to get some ramshorn or pond snails and let them hang out in the tank while it’s cycling. They keep the inevitable algae down,  poop out nice useful bacteria all over the tank, and make the whole cycling stage less boring. Yes, you will have a lot of snails by the time the cycle’s done, but I’m pro-snail so I’m happy to let them live in my tanks forever. 😊

One thing to be aware of if you buy plants with rock wool—the rock wool will break down into a dusty mess after a while, so don’t leave it in forever. Learned from experience. 😄

 

[Tihshho]

The argument on plants help/hurt has been a long discussion for decades and both arguments are valid. If you take it from the stance that plants take in nitrates and some even feed directly of ammonia, it will skew your cycle tests and monitoring. So when you see the cycle complete and then add fish and are confused on the spike in ammonia after a light stock, it's because the plants were filtering out your source ammonia. If you take it from the perspective that plants have the surface area for beneficial bacteria or are one to plant the mesh pots with rock wool in the tank, then sure there are BB sources there that will aid in providing a culture of the bacteria to increase the population growth and decrease the cycle time. 

No matter the choice it's again never a one size fits all approach. A lightly planted root feeder based tank might not see the issues, where as a full aquascape that went through a dry start to get the plants established might skew the test results. The cycling process just needs to be adjusted per the style of tank, how it's started, and how you plan on stocking it. It's truly the worst part for new people in the hobby because unless we know exactly what they are doing from the get go, or they follow directions 100% the results will always vary. 

[ARMYVET]

I am going to apologize ahead of time of my next statement offends anybody it is absolutely not meant to ...its just to hopefully let people think...but here it is...

 

Why is everybody is such a darn rush to get fish in the tank?!?  We all know the benefits to have a well established aquarium but it seems few of us are willing to let it take the time necessary to get it there.  I know that we all keep tanks to keep the fish but who here can say that taking our time in the beginning and letting the tanks settle in a bit before we add the stock is not a good decision?  

When I was setting up my wife's tank every day she asked me as to when we could put something in it and every day I explained to her the benefits of waiting.  My ammonia and nitrites were reading zero for almost 2 weeks before I put anything in it that resembled stock.  I loaded the tank heavily with plants from day one and of course you get snails which I am completely fine with.  I added some ammonia to kick things off and let it sit....No water changes...nothing.  At 3 weeks it was reading zero across the board and I let it sit another week longer.  Then I added some shrimp and snails.  The actual main attraction (a Betta) was another few weeks away.  All of the inhabitants of that tanks are doing great.  The plants are growing and everybody is happy ...ESPECIALLY MY WIFE! 

I am pretty sure on multiple occasions Cory said that when the plants are doing well and you see them growing and thriving your tank is ready. 

Again Im sorry for the rant...I apologize to anybody I offended but I just want to see people as happy with their tanks as I am with mine and maybe I do take things too slow but to me that is better than rushing things and having loss. 

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 9/21/2021 at 10:02 AM, Hobbit said:

Oh, really?? I thought plants helped the cycle because they bring in bacteria and help absorb nutrients/nitrates.

Let me see if I can explain it a bit.  You are absolutely correct that plants are going to take up nutrients.  That's actually part of the problem.  As @Tihshho correctly points out, plants will take up nitrates and ammonia.  It's the latter that can cause cycling to slow, but likewise, it can also act as a buffer against ammonia spikes.  Kind of a double edged sword. 

I think about it this way.  Plants are going to compete with the bacteria for ammonia (and some other forms of N, but I'm trying to reduce complicating the explanation unnecessarily).  So any ammonia that exists in the aquarium can be used by the bacteria or the plants.  If you are doing fish-in cycling (and here I include "snail-in"? - which has been my preferred method as well), the instant ability of the plants to take up excess ammonia acts to buffer the likelihood of spikes.  The flip side is though, they will also inhibit the growth of the N oxidizing microbes (let's call them BB from here forward) by denying them nutrients.  But, with animals in the tank, the buffering benefit probably outweighs the cost of slower BB growth to the population level eventually required.  However, when you remove the animals from the equation, there isn't the same need for this instant buffering capacity, and it becomes more straightforward to establish the BB without the interference plants cause.  Will you prevent your BB from establishing if you have lots of plants and no animals?  No.  But it will take longer, though you may not notice it in the parameters because the plants are adding noise to the response.  But then again, you might if your stock surpass the buffering capacity of the plants.  As Tihshho said, it's not one size fits all, and I'm not proscribing the answer for all situations.  The OP asked about fish-less cycling, and I wanted to offer what I think is the most straightforward path to succeed in that effort.  That's all. 

Did that help any?  Did I make it worse?  I think that covered the why of Tihshho's "it's complicated" reply. Although I know Tihshho's a straight shooter, so I'm sure I'll hear about it if I didn't.  😜 

 

 

[Tihshho]

I think you put it together eloquently!

The only reason I didn't get into details is that there are too many variables to control to give an exact science. Fishless cycle with controlled ammonia dosing is the ideal way to go through this, but the measurements will fluctuate based on plants in the tank and the absorption of organics. 

If someone is new to aquariums I'd highly recommend going through a fishless cycle without plants and post the cycle to add plants. This way you get the base understanding of how the fishless cycle works and you can see it with test kits. When setting up a tank for the fist time, things can get stressful, especially when you notice something and recommendations don't always fix it. This is one of the cases where plant quantity and type will make it next to impossible for recommendations to be an exact solution and will take some trial and error. The perk about getting a fishless cycle done without plants is that the BB will be established within the tank with no help. Adding plants post cycle will only help the quality of water filtration and bring it to a higher level. I'm guilty of not following these instructions, but I have my own methods of madness that work for me without risking fish to ammonia poisoning. 

[Zenzo]

Regarding a fishless cycle with no plants, technically you are right. However, I think that in most cases, especially with inexperienced (new) fish keepers, having plants in a new tank will help soften the "fall off the cliff" of ammonia. 

With that being said, clearly it can be confusing since there are several experienced fish keepers here that have different opinions! LOL!

Clear as mud as I like to say! 😆

[ARMYVET]

On 9/21/2021 at 2:52 PM, Zenzo said:

Regarding a fishless cycle with no plants, technically you are right. However, I think that in most cases, especially with inexperienced (new) fish keepers, having plants in a new tank will help soften the "fall off the cliff" of ammonia. 

With that being said, clearly it can be confusing since there are several experienced fish keepers here that have different opinions! LOL!

Clear as mud as I like to say! 😆

You point out a very valid issue @ZenzoWith inexperienced (new) fish keepers, I do not think they would want to set up an aquarium with nothing in it but the substrate and go thru the fishless cycle looking at it bare for a few weeks. Definitely no fun. Not to mention its harder to plant the aquarium after its full of water.  

As @Zenzosaid....Technically you both are right but from a new keepers perspective....If I cant have fish right away...let me at least be able to setup the hardscape and plants and have something beautiful to look at while I am waiting for it to finish cycling. Yes I know it will take longer but the plants will start growing and who knows...a snail might show up to the party and you will sit and watch that snail make its way all around that tank.

[Gideyon]

I'm currently doing my first fishless cycle.  No plants. I want to add the plants after 2 cycles. 

As for the ammonia source, I used Dr Tim's. But I only have a 10 gallon.  If you're trying to do this for a much larger tank, maybe 40+, I'd consider Fritz.   You'd run through a bottle of Dr Tim's pretty quickly with a large tank.  But Fritz uses a powder, and a small dosage at that.  To use the same for a small tank would be hard to get that fractional dose just right. 

 

As for what happened with your tank, I think the bioload of the pleco created so much ammonia very quickly.  If I were doing a fish-in cycle, even with the aid of bottled bacteria, I would not add a pleco or snails until the cycle is well established. And even then, add one at a time. 

[Streetwise]

There is another scenario with organic soil tanks. When I set one up, I am adding tons of nutrients and bacteria via the soil, and I plant heavily on day one. I can add fish as soon as I want. Diana Walstad explains this in her book.

[Odd Duck]

On 9/21/2021 at 10:52 AM, ARMYVET said:

I am going to apologize ahead of time of my next statement offends anybody it is absolutely not meant to ...its just to hopefully let people think...but here it is...

 

Why is everybody is such a darn rush to get fish in the tank?!?  We all know the benefits to have a well established aquarium but it seems few of us are willing to let it take the time necessary to get it there.  I know that we all keep tanks to keep the fish but who here can say that taking our time in the beginning and letting the tanks settle in a bit before we add the stock is not a good decision?  

When I was setting up my wife's tank every day she asked me as to when we could put something in it and every day I explained to her the benefits of waiting.  My ammonia and nitrites were reading zero for almost 2 weeks before I put anything in it that resembled stock.  I loaded the tank heavily with plants from day one and of course you get snails which I am completely fine with.  I added some ammonia to kick things off and let it sit....No water changes...nothing.  At 3 weeks it was reading zero across the board and I let it sit another week longer.  Then I added some shrimp and snails.  The actual main attraction (a Betta) was another few weeks away.  All of the inhabitants of that tanks are doing great.  The plants are growing and everybody is happy ...ESPECIALLY MY WIFE! 

I am pretty sure on multiple occasions Cory said that when the plants are doing well and you see them growing and thriving your tank is ready. 

Again Im sorry for the rant...I apologize to anybody I offended but I just want to see people as happy with their tanks as I am with mine and maybe I do take things too slow but to me that is better than rushing things and having loss. 

I’m here to support, you, buddy.  It’s a little embarrassing to admit how little I test my tanks.  It’s not necessarily what I’d recommend for a beginner, but once you get a feel for things and understand what’s happening, it’s less important as long as you have enough patience.

I haven’t even bothered to test the new 29 gallon reboot yet.  The plants are still melting and I need them to establish some good, solid growth before I even consider moving in the pea puffers.  So, I wait and watch and feed snails to establish those colonies since I want “pest” snails in this tank.  The filter was very well seasoned, but I’ve switched to a new, optimized HOB filter big enough for a 50 gallon that’s been running for a couple weeks and it will likely be at least another 4-6 weeks before fish go in the tank.  I switched HOB’s because, as much as I can, I’m phasing out anything that won’t restart without help after a water change or power outage.  Plus it has an air driven sponge big enough for at least 40+ gallons.

In the new 14 gallon, I did check for a nitrite spike from the substrate since I overdid the Osmocote in one 10 gallon tank (oops).  The 14 G’s been through any spike from the substrate a couple weeks ago.  Since I’m still adding plants, I will wait, watch, and when the plants are all showing the growth I want, I’ll do a heavy blind feed and watch the parameters.  If I don’t see another nitrite spike, I might actually buy some ammonia to check the response, maybe.  I’ll be starting slow with fish, anyway, and removing some of the snails currently in that tank since I won’t need many and that will make “room” for fish bioload.

I’m still developing my “feel” for tanks again after such a long hiatus, and learning the “feel” for the new-to-me in practice, dirt-capped-with-sand substrate technique.  But I know myself well enough that if had to take time to test weekly on every tank, the maintenance would get done even less often than it does now.

For me, less testing, more patience, and carefully timed, more strategic testing is better.  Until you’ve got a few years and a few tanks under your belt, regular testing is probably the way to go.

[ARMYVET]

On 9/21/2021 at 4:43 PM, Odd Duck said:

I’m here to support, you, buddy.  It’s a little embarrassing to admit how little I test my tanks.  It’s not necessarily what I’d recommend for a beginner, but once you get a feel for things and understand what’s happening, it’s less important as long as you have enough patience.

I haven’t even bothered to test the new 29 gallon reboot yet.  The plants are still melting and I need them to establish some good, solid growth before I even consider moving in the pea puffers.  So, I wait and watch and feed snails to establish those colonies since I want “pest” snails in this tank.  The filter was very well seasoned, but I’ve switched to a new, optimized HOB filter big enough for a 50 gallon that’s been running for a couple weeks and it will likely be at least another 4-6 weeks before fish go in the tank.  I switched HOB’s because, as much as I can, I’m phasing out anything that won’t restart without help after a water change or power outage.  Plus it has an air driven sponge big enough for at least 40+ gallons.

In the new 14 gallon, I did check for a nitrite spike from the substrate since I overdid the Osmocote in one 10 gallon tank (oops).  The 14 G’s been through any spike from the substrate a couple weeks ago.  Since I’m still adding plants, I will wait, watch, and when the plants are all showing the growth I want, I’ll do a heavy blind feed and watch the parameters.  If I don’t see another nitrite spike, I might actually buy some ammonia to check the response, maybe.  I’ll be starting slow with fish, anyway, and removing some of the snails currently in that tank since I won’t need many and that will make “room” for fish bioload.

I’m still developing my “feel” for tanks again after such a long hiatus, and learning the “feel” for the new-to-me in practice, dirt-capped-with-sand substrate technique.  But I know myself well enough that if had to take time to test weekly on every tank, the maintenance would get done even less often than it does now.

For me, less testing, more patience, and carefully timed, more strategic testing is better.  Until you’ve got a few years and a few tanks under your belt, regular testing is probably the way to go.

For some odd reason the world has gone and gotten itself into a big hurry.  We are currently in the "I want it now" phase of living.  Everyday in my work I get people who want things immediately....doesnt matter that there are 5 people ahead of them they want it now and then get upset when they find out the 5 people ahead of them get served first.  

Its the same for our aquariums....I brought it home 10 min ago ...why are there no fish in it yet....its fish and water whats the problem.  

I have lost lots of fish in my years of doing this and mostly from me trying to rush thing along thinking that I am going to be the one who beats the odds. WRONG!  

Now I move slow take my time and really try to make sure I do everything I can to ensure the life that I have taken charge of gets the very best care and for me if that means waiting an extra few days to get that fish or do an extra water change or feed better food.  Thats what I do.

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 9/21/2021 at 1:52 PM, Zenzo said:

technically you are right

I'll take it!  😆

On 9/21/2021 at 1:52 PM, Zenzo said:

However, I think that in most cases, especially with inexperienced (new) fish keepers, having plants in a new tank will help soften the "fall off the cliff" of ammonia. 

Interesting!  So, you are saying that the buffering capacity of having plants is more valuable to new fishkeepers than the drawbacks to establishing BB.  Could be.  Been a while since I could be considered "new" to aquariums.  I find I forget what it's like to be a beginner at things when I've been doing them for a bit.

On 9/21/2021 at 2:00 PM, ARMYVET said:

I do not think they would want to set up an aquarium with nothing in it but the substrate and go thru the fishless cycle looking at it bare for a few weeks. Definitely no fun. Not to mention its harder to plant the aquarium after its full of water.

There is a saying from a wide fishkeeper I've interacted with.  Let me see if I can remember it:

On 9/21/2021 at 10:52 AM, ARMYVET said:

I know that we all keep tanks to keep the fish but who here can say that taking our time in the beginning and letting the tanks settle in a bit before we add the stock is not a good decision?

Yup, that was it!  🤣  I know the quotes are out of context.  I'm just giving you a hard time. 

[Intuos]

I always love the debate you get when it comes to cycling. We all have such a range of experiences that it really goes to show that there is no truly right or wrong answer. Would definitely agree with ARMYVET that we do all seem to be in a rush to get to the finish (am guilty of this myself, with my latest betta tank from setup to stocked with the betta and 6 glowlight tetra in less than two weeks). I always have a good level of planting in my tanks and have access to seeded media and dose to 2ppm of ammonia for the first week to help make sure the bb has a food source even with the plants. 

[Oreganoodle]

On 9/20/2021 at 11:19 PM, Samanthabea said:

Going to high in livestock to quickly creates a new cycle it overloads the tank I did this with snails on my saltwater tank 

Only reason I caught it was i kept testing and all of a sudden everything was out of wack

How many exactly did you add to what size of tank

34 gallon tank. I added 5 zebra danios, 8 neon tetras, and a pleco. Clearly too many.  I knew enough to add bacteria, and test at least daily. I even knew enough not to add that many fish - but I let the lady at PetSmart and my 7 year olds sweet little face talk me into it. I must have gotten really lucky when I started my first tank back in high school  - b/c I had no bacteria and no tests.  The tank I had in college was an existing tank from a friend that was moved to my dorm room when he was going to flush them (shh..don't tell b/c I definitely wasn't allowed a tank 😆)  so since that was established and I kept the same gravel etc it makes more sense that I didn't have issues. 

 

Well - thank you all for your thoughts.  Clearly I'll hang out here for awhile

[Streetwise]

I don’t see this as a debate; it is a nice discussion of recipes.

[Odd Duck]

On 9/21/2021 at 7:12 PM, Streetwise said:

I don’t see this as a debate; it is a nice discussion of recipes.

Exactly!  It’s almost like asking what you want in your omelet.

[Samanthabea]

Reason for the rush is probly because our grandparents used to plop fish in and everything was dandy I think the fish have become more sensitive at least in my opinion 

I cycle and test now by the way after trying a few times how they did it