Chasing numbers-Is too much stability a bad thing?

[Tanked]

The immediate problem is that the plants in my 29 gallon planted tank have had a really bad summer.  The PSO and Italian Val have both died.  I don't chase water parameter numbers mostly because they rarely move.  I am running 4 different tanks each different in one or more ways. The single thing they have in common is the water source.  For clarity, I am using test strips from the Co-op, so the numbers are not exact.  Tetra strips give the same results.

PPM in all 4 tanks is: 0 Ammonia, 50 Nitrate, 0 Nitrite, >300 GH, 40 KH, 6.4-6.6 PH, 0 Chlorine.

The baseline at the tap is 0,0,0,>300,>40, 6.8, 0.  This is odd because the Finished Water report for my city says the GH=142. KH=98.5

The problem here, if there is one, is that the Nitrates in the two planted tanks rarely drops below 50 ppm. and the KH never rises above 40 ppm. The co-op's plant guide says the ideal KH should be at least 70 ppm.  Stopping the Easy Green for two weeks and feeding every other day did drop the nitrates some.  The numbers might not be ideal, but they are stable.

The ultimate goal here is to figure out why the fish are happy but the plants aren't.  Thoughts?

[Patrick_G]

Well we know you have plenty of Nitrates so it’s probably not a N deficiency. It could be a deficiency in another macronutrient or a micronutrient. When you stop fertilization to lower Nitrates you also lower the levels of other critical nutrients. As a general solution I’d keep dosing Easy Green at the recommended levels and do a water change to reduce Nitrates. If you can post pics of the plants having problems that’ll help identify if they’re lacking specific nutrients. 

[Mmiller2001]

I don't want to bore you, but having such a high GH could be interfering with Ca and K uptake. What does the water report say about Ca and Mg?

[Hobbit]

On 9/5/2021 at 6:08 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

I don't want to bore you, but having such a high GH could be interfering with Ca and K uptake.

I’m not the OP but I would not be bored if you expanded on this. You have nerm sniped me!

[ARMYVET]

On 9/6/2021 at 1:12 PM, Hobbit said:

I’m not the OP but I would not be bored if you expanded on this. You have nerm sniped me!

As @Mmiller2001 was eluding to...Having a crazy high GH doesnt allow the plants to take in and process Calcium and Potassium.  The high HG causes an interference with the plants ability to metabolize those elements.....so even if there was enought in the aquarium...the plants cannot use it.  

I am also wondering what the lighting situation is.  

[Tanked]

The locked pdf. did not cooperate.  The water is sourced from two different aquafers, so we are dealing with averages.  The corrected numbers are below..

Unfortunately the light system is DIY, so the numbers might not help.  An online light calculator indicates a par of 24.  The best numbers I have are: LED light 7 hours per day total.  7 hr. 640 Lumens 6000k, 6 hrs. 2000 lumen 4000k.  I am trying to keep the algae under control.

Gravel substrate with air driven UGF and HOB

6 Bloodfin Tetras, 1 Zebra Danio 3SAEs, snails 1 Amano (maybe)

Surviving plants: Elodia, 3 Anubia Nana Petite, 1 Amazon Sword, 1 Crypt Red, 1 Mystery plant.  3 Italian val (probably dead)

 

[Mmiller2001]

On 9/6/2021 at 11:12 AM, Hobbit said:

I’m not the OP but I would not be bored if you expanded on this. You have nerm sniped me!

I'm just starting to get into toxicities, so I still have a lot to learn. But apparently, certain nutrients in excess will block uptake of another. Magnesium, above 10ppm can block Ca and K uptake and there are others. I can't get detailed until I have a handle in this area. And I'm not that smart, recipe for disaster 😆. This is further complicated by sporadic posts across various forums. 

It's tricky for sure, you might observe what looks like a deficiency, say yellow stunted new growth with holes in lower growth, but you are dosing 25ppm of K. So why is there what appears to be a deficiency in K? Oops, I was dosing 20ppm Mg, or my tap water had high amounts of Mg. Then micro nutrient toxicity (over dose) can present like a deficiency. 

I should probably start logging all the places I find with information in this area. 

[Tanked]

On 9/5/2021 at 5:14 PM, Patrick_G said:

Well we know you have plenty of Nitrates so it’s probably not a N deficiency. It could be a deficiency in another macronutrient or a micronutrient. When you stop fertilization to lower Nitrates you also lower the levels of other critical nutrients. As a general solution I’d keep dosing Easy Green at the recommended levels and do a water change to reduce Nitrates. If you can post pics of the plants having problems that’ll help identify if they’re lacking specific nutrients. 

 

[Patrick_G]

Even though I try and keep a balanced tank with few water changes. I think in this case I’d do a big change and start over with the medium light level dose of Easy Green. I’d remove the sick leaves on the swords and remove as much algae from the anubias as you can with a soft toothbrush. 
This is an easy solution with ferts you already have since you’re going the frugal route. 

[Hobbit]

Well the elodea looks great! 😄 

I’m not well versed in the exact levels of individual nutrients a tank should have, but it looks to me like your tap water is fairly balanced. I’m guessing we’re not looking at a complex situation where one nutrient is super high so it messes with the others. Unless you do very infrequent water changes and something has built up.

I use the co-op’s guide to deficiencies when diagnosing plants:

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/plant-nutrient-deficiencies

To my eye, your plants look like they could be suffering from magnesium and maybe iron deficiencies, or they might just not be getting enough light. Plants only produce enough chlorophyll (which makes them green) to use the amount of light they’re getting.

I agree with @Patrick_G that I’d start dosing Easy Green again, and perhaps up your light just a tad. The good news is your nitrate levels don’t look even close to dangerous. Fish can tolerate pretty high nitrate levels, especially if it’s for a short time until the next water change. Once you get things dialed in for your plants, the algae will be less of a problem. In the meantime you can rub it off with your fingers.

That would be my strategy at least!

[Tanked]

Thank you all for the assistance @Patrick_G @Mmiller2001 @Hobbit @ARMYVET. 

3 years ago I deliberately chose to use low light easy plants just to avoid these issues.  Stopping the Easy Green and fasting the fish was a short two week experiment to see if the numbers would change. The change in nitrates was barely noticeable.

The immediate plan is:  do another 30% water change this week and begin topping off with ro/distilled water. Maybe if I cut the GH the plants might begin using the nutrients?

I will continue using the recommended Easy Green dosage and add a course of root tabs form Planted Aquarium Concepts. I have used them in the past as a supplement the Easy Green because they are low in Nitrogen.   

@Hobbit The Elodia looks great but that is less than half of it.  As you can see it blocks the light so I will be cutting it in half again.  I will also increase the light by an hour.  The worse that could happen is more algae on the plants.

I am including a picture of the same 29 gallon aquarium in November.  The second picture is the latest version of my project tank started in January.  The water is sourced from the 29, no heat, no fish, no filtration, No WCs, and no algae.  It gets about 17 hrs. of light from a recycled flashlight.  The PSO was a healthy plant taken from the 29 as a control, and the Wisteria was the last rotting stub taken from the 29.  If you look carefully, The tiny piece of moneywort in the right hand foreground has been dormant for almost a year, but the nearly invisible leaves are slightly larger.  All of these plants died in the planted tank.  Time will tell if they will be able to be reintroduced to the planted tank as acclimated plants.

 

[Mmiller2001]

My honest advice, take it however you want.

Outside of extreme choices, 97% of plants thrive in soft water. That's a GH of 4dGH or lower and in a ratio of 4:1, 3:1 or 2:1 Ca:Mg. 97% of plants want a 3dKH or lower, I myself run 0dKH. If plants are your focus, pick fish that fall into you plants parameters.

There's no such thing as easy plants. They all require light, nutrients and CO2, balancing this triad is not easy. Especially when not dosing CO2.

You need to quadruple the plant load in your tank.

Never stop dosing nutrients.

Root tabs are 100% not necessary.

Water changes are not about reducing nitrates, they are about targeting nutrients and replacing nutrients(ask me how).

Don't have a large bioload, and if you do, realize you must dose nutrients that do NOT include Nitrates, that an ALL IN ONE FERTILIZER will NEVER achieve BALANCE, ever(too large of bioload).

The amount of water changes (and Volume) you do is the single most important interactive maintenance you can do. (here comes the hate!) Ask them to show you their tank! Swords and Crypts, most of them!<---but they balance nutrients to light! Gladly link you to a guy growing difficult plants with no CO2 (to a degree). What's the difference? Water changes.

Learn GH and KH, it's pretty much the 2 most important parameters.

pH swing doesn't harm fish.

More is not better, enough is better.

Chasing numbers is the best advice anyone can give you, anyone that says, "don't chase numbers", you have to question. Stability is achieved by understanding what's going in and what is going out, and unless you test every single component of your tank, it's impossible to know, but we can 100% control what's going into the tank and manage what's going out via water changes.

Easy plants are not easy, they are just adapted to a wider set of parameters, so people often claim success when there approach would only work for those plants (Swords, Anubias and Crypts) typically.

All that said, stick to Swords, Anubias and Crypts! :)

 

[Hobbit]

On 9/8/2021 at 6:03 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

All that said, stick to Swords, Anubias and Crypts! 🙂

^This is what’s still growing in my oldest tank! 😄 

Quote

 

Ohhh look how pretty those plants are! This makes me think that light is a big problem in your other tank. The elodea is probably blocking way too much light. Notice that the only plants surviving in your 29 gal are the ones on the edges. The elodea could be using up too many nutrients as well.

One tip for the elodea—if you’d like it to look more like a stem plant rather than floating at the top of your tank, buy some large glass beads and string the elodea through. The beads will sink, and then you can trim the stems however tall you’d like them. Here are the beads I use:

https://www.amazon.com/Craftdady-Assorted-European-Rondelle-Bracelet/dp/B07L3Q2Q3K/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=large+glass+beads&qid=1631191130&sr=8-7

On 9/8/2021 at 6:03 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Chasing numbers is the best advice anyone can give you, anyone that says, "don't chase numbers", you have to question.

Usually the numbers people are chasing are the wrong ones. They chase pH without knowing about KH. Or they chase temperature or nitrates, but fish and plants are tolerant of a fairly wide range of both of those.

Remember, “all of education is a series of consecutively smaller lies.”

Big lie stage —> Fish and plants need exactly x y z water parameters to thrive.

Medium lie stage —> Don’t chase numbers.

Small lie stage —> Chase some numbers but not others.

Tiny lie stage —> Whether or not you should chase numbers depends on what you’re trying to do. 

Once you get past the tiny lie stage, you’re at the point where even the experts are arguing. 😁

[gardenman]

It's easy to forget sometimes how competitive plants are. If one plant is doing well and the rest aren't, it's likely due to that one plant sucking up everything and outcompeting the rest for whatever they need. 

[Tanked]

On 9/8/2021 at 6:03 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

You need to quadruple the plant load in your tank.

That is what I have been trying to do. The plants aren't cooperating.  The root tabs were added because they offered the same amount of potassium the big name brands have and little nitrogen.  The Anubia appreciated it.

[Tanked]

On 9/9/2021 at 8:42 AM, Hobbit said:

Once you get past the tiny lie stage, you’re at the point where even the experts are arguing. 😁

I've noticed that!  Even though the mantra: 20ppm Nitrates is echoing across these forums, I don't chase numbers because they aren't moving.  That was the basis for my original question.  

My planted tank journey can be best likened to a marathon runner who continuously  trips and falls just short of the finish line.  The November picture is a pretty good illustration. The Hornwort I've grown for years is dying  The Wisteria grew tall quickly and died. Italian Val. grew and put out new runners every week, and recently died along with the PSO that replaced the Wisteria. 

The really frustrating thing is that the 10 gallon project tank pictured is doing well without my help  The Elodea in all of my tanks refuses to be weighted or planted.  It is growing in the 10, but just barely.  You are probably right about the light contributing to the problem.  The Wisteria really took off when I replaced the Lava rock with more reflective pool sand.   All the plants in the 10 are growing towards the center.   ...which happens to be where that single red LED glows 24/7 as long as the flashlight is plugged in.😉

 

[eatyourpeas]

On 9/10/2021 at 8:06 AM, Tanked said:

The Elodea in all of my tanks refuses to be weighted or planted.

My experience with Elodea has been the same. It likes to float and send roots down to the substrate. One interesting thing I noticed is that they are nutrient hogs! It literally killed my Java Fern Windelov within days of entering the tank. It seems to be alright with the Anubias, but I am not risking any other plants in that tank. The Betta loves it, though.

[Tanked]

On 9/10/2021 at 11:17 AM, eatyourpeas said:

My experience with Elodea has been the same. It likes to float and send roots down to the substrate. One interesting thing I noticed is that they are nutrient hogs! It literally killed my Java Fern Windelov within days of entering the tank. It seems to be alright with the Anubias, but I am not risking any other plants in that tank. The Betta loves it, though.

I still think the Elodea killed the Hornwort, but I can' prove it.  I knew my Java fern wasn't in great shape when I got it, so I can't prove that one either.   I got it to provide a tall plant to hide the plumbing, and to eat the Nitrates.  Fail on both accounts.  On the bright side, while floating, it put down vertical roots which was a good look. The Barbs and Silver Dollars can't get enough of it.