I guess I’m breeding puffers, now!

[Odd Duck]

I was feeding snails in the tank next to the tank that had the “extra” pea puffers after I got my shoal for the ungrateful Bad Pea Daddy.  I had pulled out the fake plants (it was a quarantine tank) and it was running until I could get around to a thorough cleaning.  I randomly tossed in the sponge filters I pulled out of the 29 gallon (that, ironically, is going to become the pea puffer tank).

Some movement drew my eye, I look closer, and it’s a tiny baby pea puffer!  Keep looking of course, and there’s at least half a dozen from 2-3 mm long.  The tank is a hot mess since it was a bare bottom grow out tank for messy murder bean juvies.  There were zero plants plastic or live in it, and they were feeding off the mulm and algae that had fallen off the plastic plants when I scooped out the extras to take back to my lfs.  I’m not sure when they hatched as I hadn’t paid a lot of attention to a tank of mulm and algae, not expecting to see anything in there.  But the eggs must have been just shortly before I pulled out the last of the group.  So I took a breeding pair back to the lfs.  🤦🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

Sorry for the terrible photos, they don’t exactly stand out from the background.
 

[Odd Duck]

They now have a good sized clump of Christmas moss and another of Pearl weed for more microfauna and I’ve fed them some microworms.  So glad I’ve had cultures ready for this day for months.  I just expected it to happen in the tank that actually had fish in there.  I took the “extra” puffers back to the lfs at least a week ago.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Odd Duck

[Patrick_G]

Congratulations, although I was hoping you would do a step by step journal on breeding these guys. So now we know the secret is a bare, mulmy tank with some random peas plopped in 😀

Edited September 2, 2021 by Patrick_G

[Odd Duck]

Now I know I have to get around to tying the moss onto branches in the 29 gallon reboot tank ASAP!  I was considering going for a slow growing moss that would need less tidying in the long run, would look neater, still serve the purpose, etc, but now I’m thinking I need to have faster growing moss.  
 

I really was planning to use Distichophylla malabarensis, Jungermannia truncata, or Physcomitrium hookeriacaea since they each have a very cool, upright form that would let tiny baby puffers swim between fronds while limiting adult access but Christmas moss (Vesicularia montagnei) has a looser, more open form.

Pics are order listed on the unusual mosses.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Odd Duck
To add pics.

[Odd Duck]

On 9/2/2021 at 3:35 PM, Patrick_G said:

Congratulations, although I was hoping you would do a step by step journal on breeding these guys. So now we know the secret is a bare, mulmy tank with some random peas plopped in 😀

Apparently the true secret is 100% neglect.  Yank out the parents and leave the eggs and babies to fend completely for themselves for about a week.

At least I was so lazy I didn’t unplug the heater.  Now I’m glad it’s a little hard to reach behind the tank stack.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Odd Duck

[Odd Duck]

I guess I’m deciding on a moss tonight and spending a good chunk of my day tying moss onto branches tomorrow.  Now I’m wondering if the same thing will happen when I pull the shoal out of the 20 to put them in the 29?  Will they be leaving eggs behind?

Don’t mind me, I’ll just be sitting with my nose plastered to the glass of the 20 for the next couple months or so, wondering if the mean beans have been laying eggs for the last month and eating the eggs or babies as soon as they hatch.  I clearly need to provide more cover for eggs and babies.  I thought having every inch of substrate covered in plants including microswords, algae, and assorted mosses would be enough.  🤷🏻‍♀️

[eatyourpeas]

Ohhh, sweet! Congratulations on the fun surprise! I look forward to updates. 🙂

[Odd Duck]

On 9/2/2021 at 3:55 PM, eatyourpeas said:

Ohhh, sweet! Congratulations on the fun surprise! I look forward to updates. 🙂

I almost couldn’t believe my eyes!  They’re so tiny, but they moved like puffers.  I had to get out my phone and zoom in on them to convince myself, even though that’s the only thing they could be.  😆 

[Patrick_G]

So many cool mosses! Another rabbit hole to go down. 

[Odd Duck]

On 9/2/2021 at 4:03 PM, Patrick_G said:

So many cool mosses! Another rabbit hole to go down. 

Yep, I went there a while back which is why I have these.  The structure of them is just so different I had to experiment a little and now it’s hopefully going to start paying off.

[Tihshho]

Nice surprise there! Best of luck raising them up, it looks like they did a great job to get past the hard part so this next sprint should be simple.

[Odd Duck]

On 9/2/2021 at 4:14 PM, Tihshho said:

Nice surprise there! Best of luck raising them up, it looks like they did a great job to get past the hard part so this next sprint should be simple.

I’m hoping so.  I have plenty of vinegar eels and microworms.  My new Grindal worm culture is doing well, and I’ve got loads of white worms since I’ve been feeding those to the juvies and adults.  Not to mention I’ve got amphipods and bladder snails in that tank that I had added just to clean up some of the gunk before I tucked into it as a full on clean up project.  Glad I got side tracked onto doing the 29 gallon first!

Edited September 2, 2021 by Odd Duck

[Tihshho]

What size were the puffers that you had brought back? 

When it comes to spawning, a pristine tank almost is never the environment a lot of things spawn in. Fish that require a pristine tank like a lot of flow and/or will spawn as soon as they hit water. The rest have it in their instincts to breed in a way there eggs are camouflaged as to not become insta food. 

[Odd Duck]

On 9/2/2021 at 4:22 PM, Tihshho said:

What size were the puffers that you had brought back? 

When it comes to spawning, a pristine tank almost is never the environment a lot of things spawn in. Fish that require a pristine tank like a lot of flow and/or will spawn as soon as they hit water. The rest have it in their instincts to breed in a way there eggs are camouflaged as to not become insta food. 

I’ve not worried too much about the mulm in the bottom of my 20 gallon long since I know any babies would need that microfauna to survive.  Well, I should say I DO worry, but I know babies will need it there, so I try to ignore it as best I can.

I deliberately don’t do a great job of siphoning the substrate so it would build mulm and microfauna.  That tank is planted heavily enough that I figured I would someday just magically spot a baby here and there.  I hoped I might spot an egg here or there and be able to collect it for hatching separately to increase its odds of survival.  I’ve never spotted an egg or baby until today, and certainly didn’t expect them to appear in this tank.

The puffers I took back to the lfs had just finally transitioned to adult colors/markings.  I had been raising 11 juvies I got from the lfs trying to create a full shoal so my lone Bad Dad could have his best chance of integrating into a shoal and an appropriate pea puffer social group.  He promptly tried to kill the other male within about 3 minutes (grabbed him and shook him like a rag doll!) so Bad Dad is back to being a solitary pea, sadly, since he can’t get along with anybody.  But he does at least have a well planted 6G cube for him to spend his time in hiding.  🤦🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

So the puffers I removed from this tank were between 3/4” to almost a full inch long to tail tip.  Old enough to be able to select the male to female ratio I wanted.  I had moved the selected puffers to the 20 for the shoal.  The “extras” went back to the lfs just over a week ago, I think it was Friday before last?  So closer to 2 weeks ago now.  I’m guessing they must have laid the eggs just before I took them out.  Pea eggs take around 5 days to hatch.

The smallest baby is only 2 mm, the biggest nearly 3 mm to tail tip.  There are at least 6 and maybe more (there’s a fair amount of gunk in the tank).  I’ll do my best to document their growth, despite having to look at the ooey, gooey mess in there.  😆 

[Guppysnail]

That is amazing. I’m so happy for you. I’m looking forward to reading more of this. I’m nuts though I would have rushed back to the lfs to see if they were still there 🤣. 

[laritheloud]

This is so incredible! Congratulations, and it's a shame the puffers were already returned to the LFS. I would have been like @Guppysnail and high-tailed it all the way back to the store flapping my arms about the puffers I handed over to them. Hope you raise these little guys into cute little murder beans!

[Odd Duck]

On 9/2/2021 at 7:30 PM, Guppysnail said:

That is amazing. I’m so happy for you. I’m looking forward to reading more of this. I’m nuts though I would have rushed back to the lfs to see if they were still there 🤣. 

Except I took them in almost 2 weeks ago, now.  And somebody posted on my local Band and said they didn’t have any when they went in just a few days later.  So they must have sold within a couple days.

[Odd Duck]

On 9/2/2021 at 7:35 PM, laritheloud said:

This is so incredible! Congratulations, and it's a shame the puffers were already returned to the LFS. I would have been like @Guppysnail and high-tailed it all the way back to the store flapping my arms about the puffers I handed over to them. Hope you raise these little guys into cute little murder beans!

I still have 8 puffers in a gender appropriate mixed shoal.  Once my 29 gallon reboot is ready, I will fish trap them and in they go with a tank that is hopefully set up better for long term success with raising babies.  Hopefully I’ve learned something from the first go round and giving them more room will make a happier shoal.

I’m now hoping when I pull the adult shoal out of the 20 to move them to the 29 that it will magically reveal more puffer babies in the 20.  Then I can raise them to sell to the lfs, also. One of my goals was to raise enough to help reduce the number of fish imported, at least in my tiny corner of the world.

[ChemBob]

@Odd Duck So cool! I'm debating getting into breeding a bit myself, but not sure I'm ready to take the plunge. Are pea puffers egg scatterers, or do they stick eggs to a mop or plant like cories? I don't have any but have long debated a murder bean colony. 

[Odd Duck]

On 9/2/2021 at 8:40 PM, ChemBob said:

@Odd Duck So cool! I'm debating getting into breeding a bit myself, but not sure I'm ready to take the plunge. Are pea puffers egg scatterers, or do they stick eggs to a mop or plant like cories? I don't have any but have long debated a murder bean colony. 

Egg scatterers, but they like to scatter in moss or similar plants.  They will eat their own eggs and fry, too.  They are definitely not the easiest fish I’ve kept.  It’s been quite challenging to get a functional shoal and I’ve only had the 20 set up since mid January, puffers went in about mid March.  Removed excess males about mid May and started growing up new juveniles right after that.  The new shoal members only went in the tank in early July.  I’m already set up to move them to a bigger tank as soon as the 29 reboot is ready.  There are some fish that are not prospering with 8 in a 20 long even though that’s within stocking parameters for puffers.  I’m hoping to fix that with more tank volume.

If I was going to have a complete do-over, I would grow up juvies fully in quarantine the first time around and not put any puffers in the tank until I could tell their sexes.  I would do fewer fish in a larger tank than recommended, which is why I’m switching my shoal to a larger tank.  I would not try to do a single male with a harem at all (failed x 2) before trying to build a larger shoal (which has taken 2 attempts to work because there were so many males in the first group of juvies).

I would plant even heavier than I did and even more plants will be going into the 29 - Anubias and Java ferns on wood and rocks so I can re-arrange easily if needed to discourage bad behaviors.  I just want any start up algae to be over before I add in the slower growing plants that are more susceptible to algae accumulation.

A little summary might be helpful, I guess, for anybody interested in pea puffers.

1. Plan on at least 2-3 females per male.

2. Plan on at least 6 or more in the shoal to have any chance of normal behavior (I had 6 still in the QT after completing my shoal).

3. Plan on at least 20 gallons for a 6 member shoal, not the 15 gallon minimum recommendation for 6.

4. Don’t bother with dither fish unless you have a much larger tank and realize that ANY fish you put with pea puffers will be at risk for bites and nips and potentially worse.  I’ve not tried it but I’ve heard of people doing a shoal of 6-8 in a 55 community tank as long as there are no slow, long finned fish.  I have tried dithers (ember tetras - fast and wary) and they went from 10 to 6 in just a few days after being at 10 for weeks after adding them.

5. Plan on about twice as many plants as you would normally use, even for a more typical “heavily planted” tank.  My 29 doesn’t look that densely planted yet, but that’s jungle Val (Vallisneria americana) in the back right corner and it will get very dense pretty quickly once it settles.  I’m also still hoping to find a tall “mother sword” of Echinodorus bleherii in that same back corner and I’ll crowd the Vals even more.  It won’t show off the sword at its best, it’s not meant for that in this tank.  It’s meant to provide cover.  And that’s 3 radicans swords on the left side.  Yep, too dense there, too.  Very much on purpose.

6. Make sure to have plenty of moss(es) or similar fine-leaved, dense plants as a significant part of your plant scheme.  I’ll be starting moss tomorrow in the 29.  Puffers aren’t expected to breed without moss, but apparently dense plastic plants and muck can serve in a pinch.  🙄🤪

7. Add any shrimp BEFORE you add puffers.  Pick shrimp that are on the bigger side.  Be prepared for the shrimp to potentially become a snack, because, well, murder beans.  I will be adding Amanos before puffers go in this time, not after.  It got waaaay to exciting for the Amanos when I added them after the puffers were already in the tank.

I fully expect it to take close to 2 months to get the 29 settled and ready for the puffers with plants, snails, and amphipods well established.  I won’t be adding otos to this tank, they seem too stressed with the puffers despite others saying they’d be fine.  They might be better with more space, but otos are just too cute and precious to risk them.  I can’t bring myself to do it again and regretted it pretty much from the beginning because they went from happy, active fish before puffers to quiet and reclusive after puffers.

Just my thoughts based on my personal experience, take them for whatever you think they’re worth.

[eatyourpeas]

On 9/2/2021 at 8:29 PM, Odd Duck said:

I won’t be adding otos to this tank, they seem too stressed with the puffers despite others saying they’d be fine.

I put two Otos in my pea puffer tank and he killed them before I could even take them out. Otos are too peaceful and trusting, unfortunately. 🙁

[Odd Duck]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:38 PM, eatyourpeas said:

I put two Otos in my pea puffer tank and he killed them before I could even take them out. Otos are too peaceful and trusting, unfortunately. 🙁

Yep.  Singleton males are the worst of all IME and from what I’ve read.

[eatyourpeas]

On 9/2/2021 at 8:39 PM, Odd Duck said:

Yep.  Singleton males are the worst of all IME and from what I’ve read.

He still has my heart! Those eyes! And he knows it!!!

[Odd Duck]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:41 PM, eatyourpeas said:

He still has my heart! Those eyes! And he knows it!!!

It’s all about those little eyes, isn’t it?

[Patrick_G]

On 9/2/2021 at 8:29 PM, Odd Duck said:

Egg scatterers, but they like to scatter in moss or similar plants.  They will eat their own eggs and fry, too.  They are definitely not the easiest fish I’ve kept.  It’s been quite challenging to get a functional shoal and I’ve only had the 20 set up since mid January, puffers went in about mid March.  Removed excess males about mid May and started growing up new juveniles right after that.  The new shoal members only went in the tank in early July.  I’m already set up to move them to a bigger tank as soon as the 29 reboot is ready.  There are some fish that are not prospering with 8 in a 20 long even though that’s within stocking parameters for puffers.  I’m hoping to fix that with more tank volume.

If I was going to have a complete do-over, I would grow up juvies fully in quarantine the first time around and not put any puffers in the tank until I could tell their sexes.  I would do fewer fish in a larger tank than recommended, which is why I’m switching my shoal to a larger tank.  I would not try to do a single male with a harem at all (failed x 2) before trying to build a larger shoal (which has taken 2 attempts to work because there were so many males in the first group of juvies).

I would plant even heavier than I did and even more plants will be going into the 29 - Anubias and Java ferns on wood and rocks so I can re-arrange easily if needed to discourage bad behaviors.  I just want any start up algae to be over before I add in the slower growing plants that are more susceptible to algae accumulation.

A little summary might be helpful, I guess, for anybody interested in pea puffers.

1. Plan on at least 2-3 females per male.

2. Plan on at least 6 or more in the shoal to have any chance of normal behavior (I had 6 still in the QT after completing my shoal).

3. Plan on at least 20 gallons for a 6 member shoal, not the 15 gallon minimum recommendation for 6.

4. Don’t bother with dither fish unless you have a much larger tank and realize that ANY fish you put with pea puffers will be at risk for bites and nips and potentially worse.  I’ve not tried it but I’ve heard of people doing a shoal of 6-8 in a 55 community tank as long as there are no slow, long finned fish.  I have tried dithers (ember tetras - fast and wary) and they went from 10 to 6 in just a few days after being at 10 for weeks after adding them.

5. Plan on about twice as many plants as you would normally use, even for a more typical “heavily planted” tank.  My 29 doesn’t look that densely planted yet, but that’s jungle Val (Vallisneria americana) in the back right corner and it will get very dense pretty quickly once it settles.  I’m also still hoping to find a tall “mother sword” of Echinodorus bleherii in that same back corner and I’ll crowd the Vals even more.  It won’t show off the sword at its best, it’s not meant for that in this tank.  It’s meant to provide cover.  And that’s 3 radicans swords on the left side.  Yep, too dense there, too.  Very much on purpose.

6. Make sure to have plenty of moss(es) or similar fine-leaved, dense plants as a significant part of your plant scheme.  I’ll be starting moss tomorrow in the 29.  Puffers aren’t expected to breed without moss, but apparently dense plastic plants and muck can serve in a pinch.  🙄🤪

7. Add any shrimp BEFORE you add puffers.  Pick shrimp that are on the bigger side.  Be prepared for the shrimp to potentially become a snack, because, well, murder beans.  I will be adding Amanos before puffers go in this time, not after.  It got waaaay to exciting for the Amanos when I added them after the puffers were already in the tank.

I fully expect it to take close to 2 months to get the 29 settled and ready for the puffers with plants, snails, and amphipods well established.  I won’t be adding otos to this tank, they seem too stressed with the puffers despite others saying they’d be fine.  They might be better with more space, but otos are just too cute and precious to risk them.  I can’t bring myself to do it again and regretted it pretty much from the beginning because they went from happy, active fish before puffers to quiet and reclusive after puffers.

Just my thoughts based on my personal experience, take them for whatever you think they’re worth.

@Irene, this info might be great for a blog post. 
@Odd Duck, thanks for the info!