Pool-Owner Client Wants Fish Pool

[Scott P.]

My buddy has a indoor pool. They don't use it. The other day he asked me for my thoughts on making it an indoor Koi pond.

I just told him to do a ton of research first as I have no idea how this would work. They keep it clean, they just don't use it.

His wife said it was fine with her. Not sure yet if he is serious. Time will tell I guess.

[NanoNano]

Former pool owner here...Lot's of potential issues to think about:

This sounds like it was used recently as a swimming pool,  so there's likely some residual chlorine/chemicals that will continue to leech/off gas into the water and the materials used for construction may not be "fish safe" (I remember seeing pool tiles advertised with embedded "microban" antimicrobial properties at one point).  As others have pointed out- the pool liner will decay- there's no way to prevent it and maintenance will be unavoidable.  Finding "a pool repair" company willing to venture into a green water fish laden mess instead of requiring the pool to be drained could be a challenge.

The pool will require regular feeding and cleaning...sounds like the Mrs has tapped out,  so all that falls on the Mr.  He needs to really be clear with himself on the time and money commitment that he's obligating himself to.

Open water will attract insects which will breed and be kept captive by the screen....and algae/fish poop can produce an odor  if out of balance.  Owners could find that they don't want to go near the pool to feed the fish because of the flying pests and/or stank. Not sure what the course of action (or required action by the state) would be if the owner encountered a toxic algae bloom.

As other's have mentioned.  When the owner fails (or even have a natural death),  they will need a way to dispose of some potentially large dead fish...if they succeed, they will need to find a home for some potentially large live fish (or a whole lot of small fish if they breed).  Dumping them in a water body is a no-no.  The end game when the time comes to shut down  a heavily stocked pool could be a complete nightmare of complications and expense.

Owner needs to research state DNR/Fish and Wildlife runs as well as federal Dept of Agriculture rules.  Capture and keeping of native species often at best requires a permit.  Capture and keeping of invasive species is almost always forbidden and comes with a potential fine and jail time if rules are not observed.  My impression is that after iguanas, peacocks, pythons, etc. many Florida judges are not apt to be lenient in charges involving invasive animals.

[Ken]

I'm pretty sure if I had a pool there would be fish in it. If the pool in question were mine there would be an assortment on common goldfish in it tomorrow.

[Jimfish98]

Floridian who has a pool, had a pond, here are my thoughts...drop this client. I have seen people try and convert this stuff for koi and others and 9/10 fail. Those that succeed go to bigger measures but always have had filtration. Those that skip filters fall in line with the failures as eventually it becomes a bit of a toxic pit killing inhabitants or the city/county flag it and start issuing fines.  This is of course beyond the insane amount of noise that he is going to hear from Cuban Tree Frogs once they move in and start mating.

The successful ones either full convert to pond with filters, or cap existing plumbing and build a smaller pond within the pond by infilling it with gravel and liners to reduce the size. Costs are up there and far more than just keeping the pool running for 5-10 years. 

[Biotope Biologist]

On 8/20/2021 at 12:09 PM, NanoNano said:

 

Owner needs to research state DNR/Fish and Wildlife runs as well as federal Dept of Agriculture rules.  Capture and keeping of native species often at best requires a permit.  Capture and keeping of invasive species is almost always forbidden and comes with a potential fine and jail time if rules are not observed.  My impression is that after iguanas, peacocks, pythons, etc. many Florida judges are not apt to be lenient in charges involving invasive animals.

Florida state rules are incredibly lax compared to others on invasive species. First, many are not categorized as such and therefore have no stipulation. Also the "control" of invasives is a rather broad term legally speaking. As long as you do not have intent to reproduce or re-release invasives what you do with them outside of transporting them to another part of the state is turned a blind eye on.

 

These fish are often used as bait fish, which in Washington this is illegal, so we cannot collect any fish that are not game species or outlined in the regulations: see olympic mudminnow thread.

 

Florida regs:

https://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/nonnatives/regulations/aquatic-species/

[NanoNano]

On 8/20/2021 at 12:39 PM, Biotope Biologist said:

Florida state rules are incredibly lax compared to others on invasive species. First, many are not categorized as such and therefore have no stipulation. Also the "control" of invasives is a rather broad term legally speaking. As long as you do not have intent to reproduce or re-release invasives what you do with them outside of transporting them to another part of the state is turned a blind eye on.

Ehhhh...I branched off the link you included in your post and there appears to be a significant number of regulation changes around non native wildlife that have gone into effect in 2021- such as requiring permitting or in some cases surrender of invasive reptiles.  It also states that a permit is now required to sell any freshwater fish.  It looks *to me* like Florida's laissez faire approach with non native species is already in the midst of significant change with the reptile program likely being a pilot for restrictions on fish/birds/etc.   I think the owner would be wise to make sure that they understand where the FWC roadmap is headed not only where it is today.  This is a case where you probably don't want to be the last guy in the pool literally or figuratively.

[Biotope Biologist]

On 8/20/2021 at 1:06 PM, NanoNano said:

Ehhhh...I branched off the link you included in your post and there appears to be a significant number of regulation changes around non native wildlife that have gone into effect in 2021- such as requiring permitting or in some cases surrender of invasive reptiles.  It also states that a permit is now required to sell any freshwater fish.  It looks *to me* like Florida's laissez faire approach with non native species is already in the midst of significant change with the reptile program likely being a pilot for restrictions on fish/birds/etc.   I think the owner would be wise to make sure that they understand where the FWC roadmap is headed not only where it is today.  This is a case where you probably don't want to be the last guy in the pool literally or figuratively.

For Florida's sake I hope so. Without getting into politics, I'd like to leave it at, it's such a beautiful and fragile ecosystem, it's a shame to see it wasted on people who seek to cover this world in concrete.

 

Granted I do not condone breaking the regulation even if it's "stupid" or you had good intentions. I feel as a government employee that I need to make myself clear in that regard.

[CT_]

On 8/20/2021 at 6:38 AM, Brandon p said:

he wants to put some small fish in the well eat some of the algae is there something that would go in there is on the inexpensive side because I’m not a total believer in this.

Is the goal to keep fish or keep it clean?  I'd convince him to embrace the dirt and go full pond.

A buddy of mine bought a house with a pool.  he wanted no part of pool-life, so he drained and refilled it, threw in some feeder comets and plants and a few years later he has a million fish many a foot long.  He feeds hand fulls of pond food when he remembers, which can be every day or once every 6 months depending on if its nice enough to spend time in his yard.  It's an amazing pond now.

[TankofFish]

On 8/20/2021 at 10:28 AM, Brandon p said:

That is the pool. The snail is from a canal cross the street from his house. The problem with pleco in SW Florida is they destroy everything. Eat into concrete sea walls the erosion bags and dig under things several feet to hide. The snails do pretty much the same but are on a smaller scale. We have both native and invasive apple snails here but the bigger ones are invasive. A large will clean  tank glass in a few days. So those are out. I thought about mosquito fish but I don’t know how much vegetation eat

Tell him to go at it, buy a big pound filter and enjoy, looks like Fla?

I would love to be able to do what he is thinking about.

Wish I was close I have a Asian red tail cat fish I would give him that would love his pool

[Brandon p]

On 8/20/2021 at 4:16 PM, CT_ said:

Is the goal to keep fish or keep it clean?  I'd convince him to embrace the dirt and go full pond.

A buddy of mine bought a house with a pool.  he wanted no part of pool-life, so he drained and refilled it, threw in some feeder comets and plants and a few years later he has a million fish many a foot long.  He feeds hand fulls of pond food when he remembers, which can be every day or once every 6 months depending on if its nice enough to spend time in his yard.  It's an amazing pond now.

He wants a pond not a pool. He is willing to add filtration to make it a pond. It was a  salt water pool which is very common here. He asked me just because I have several fish tanks and told him I would be interested in helping but not doing the state and local permits. The city has said as long as he has a fence they don’t care but recommend that he keep a clear water pond just just because in dry season gator will walk over a mile to find water or little gators are forced out by a bigger one. If he has it his way he would have tons of African cichlids. I really think it depends on how much money he is willing to put in to it. It got the idea I guess from a neighbor that he had a few years back that had fish in his salt water pool. I question that and believe if he did it was probably not healthy for the fish. He swam in it as a pool. This guy just wants to look at nice fish

[Brandon p]

On 8/20/2021 at 3:09 PM, NanoNano said:

Former pool owner here...Lot's of potential issues to think about:

This sounds like it was used recently as a swimming pool,  so there's likely some residual chlorine/chemicals that will continue to leech/off gas into the water and the materials used for construction may not be "fish safe" (I remember seeing pool tiles advertised with embedded "microban" antimicrobial properties at one point).  As others have pointed out- the pool liner will decay- there's no way to prevent it and maintenance will be unavoidable.  Finding "a pool repair" company willing to venture into a green water fish laden mess instead of requiring the pool to be drained could be a challenge.

The pool will require regular feeding and cleaning...sounds like the Mrs has tapped out,  so all that falls on the Mr.  He needs to really be clear with himself on the time and money commitment that he's obligating himself to.

Open water will attract insects which will breed and be kept captive by the screen....and algae/fish poop can produce an odor  if out of balance.  Owners could find that they don't want to go near the pool to feed the fish because of the flying pests and/or stank. Not sure what the course of action (or required action by the state) would be if the owner encountered a toxic algae bloom.

As other's have mentioned.  When the owner fails (or even have a natural death),  they will need a way to dispose of some potentially large dead fish...if they succeed, they will need to find a home for some potentially large live fish (or a whole lot of small fish if they breed).  Dumping them in a water body is a no-no.  The end game when the time comes to shut down  a heavily stocked pool could be a complete nightmare of complications and expense.

Owner needs to research state DNR/Fish and Wildlife runs as well as federal Dept of Agriculture rules.  Capture and keeping of native species often at best requires a permit.  Capture and keeping of invasive species is almost always forbidden and comes with a potential fine and jail time if rules are not observed.  My impression is that after iguanas, peacocks, pythons, etc. many Florida judges are not apt to be lenient in charges involving invasive animals.

Florida is changing laws but they are really only enforced if a complaint is made. Which would probably be likely because it’s different. City has said as long as it meets the pool code about fences he is good be the city is not FWC(Florida Wildlife Commission)there are so many aquarium fish here that people catch wild jewel cichlids and such to use as Bass bait. Mayan cichlids are in many tanks because you can get them in your back yard pond or canals. On the other coast Peacock bass, knife fish and Midas Cichlids were released as sport fish in the 70’s. That’s on the Southeast Coast. I’m on the Southwest coast and the peacock bass can survive many winters but that once in 10 year winter kills most so there is no sport fishing here for them. FWC is most worried about people removing and killing snakeheads and common plecos. No one wants to run into a giant snake but to get a huge knife fish or even a Midas go home with a story. 

[Brandon p]

On 8/20/2021 at 4:16 PM, CT_ said:

Is the goal to keep fish or keep it clean?  I'd convince him to embrace the dirt and go full pond.

A buddy of mine bought a house with a pool.  he wanted no part of pool-life, so he drained and refilled it, threw in some feeder comets and plants and a few years later he has a million fish many a foot long.  He feeds hand fulls of pond food when he remembers, which can be every day or once every 6 months depending on if its nice enough to spend time in his yard.  It's an amazing pond now.

 

On 8/20/2021 at 4:06 PM, NanoNano said:

Ehhhh...I branched off the link you included in your post and there appears to be a significant number of regulation changes around non native wildlife that have gone into effect in 2021- such as requiring permitting or in some cases surrender of invasive reptiles.  It also states that a permit is now required to sell any freshwater fish.  It looks *to me* like Florida's laissez faire approach with non native species is already in the midst of significant change with the reptile program likely being a pilot for restrictions on fish/birds/etc.   I think the owner would be wise to make sure that they understand where the FWC roadmap is headed not only where it is today.  This is a case where you probably don't want to be the last guy in the pool literally or figuratively.

The permit is $40 to sell fish and it’s meant for bait fish but has been on the books for a long time. It was installed to prevent use of feeder gold fish used as bait because they used to be cheaper. I agree that the FWC is trying to prevent the next snakeheads or scorpion fish

[Brandon p]

On 8/20/2021 at 11:21 AM, Gideyon said:

I'm curious... When you say your client, are you in pool servicing or aquarium servicing?  Or something totally different but he knows you're into fish? 

I know nothing about ponds, nor what can take care of the algae. I'd just get the professionally cleaned and then work on making a pond. 

There are fish that can handle very cold, even ice on top weather. And the pool is deep enough not to freeze over completely.  Maybe a couple dozen comets can thrive there.  But really, I know nothing.... 

I’m in a total different business. I resell rare shoes to people with to much money. I have fish and have had them for years and have just started to breed a few for fun and a challenge. Pool in summer months is about 90f and in winter can get to the high 60’s but that with a cold front and most of winther is in the 70’s. I think most people would just clean the pool. That’s what I would do. 

[Biotope Biologist]

So if he is leaning towards Africans and had a saltwater pool would tilapia and mayan cichlids not fit the bill? I know these guys are pretty resilient to salinity and the salinity would keep pest insects at bay. Not to mention keep most aquatic parasites off the cichlids. I know most people in that area consider them mundane, but with proper feed they can really get some gorgeous colors on them. Especially around breeding time.

[Brandon p]

On 8/20/2021 at 12:46 PM, Biotope Biologist said:

Dip net or catch fish out of the canal. Why buy mosquitofish and plecos when they are free in Florida. The canals are teaming with invasives including those apple snails.

 

Just make sure to have a buddy around because alligators and snakes.

 

No need to buy water hyacinth or water lily either, just go to your local canal 

You correct you could find just about 

 

On 8/20/2021 at 3:09 PM, NanoNano said:

Former pool owner here...Lot's of potential issues to think about:

This sounds like it was used recently as a swimming pool,  so there's likely some residual chlorine/chemicals that will continue to leech/off gas into the water and the materials used for construction may not be "fish safe" (I remember seeing pool tiles advertised with embedded "microban" antimicrobial properties at one point).  As others have pointed out- the pool liner will decay- there's no way to prevent it and maintenance will be unavoidable.  Finding "a pool repair" company willing to venture into a green water fish laden mess instead of requiring the pool to be drained could be a challenge.

The pool will require regular feeding and cleaning...sounds like the Mrs has tapped out,  so all that falls on the Mr.  He needs to really be clear with himself on the time and money commitment that he's obligating himself to.

Open water will attract insects which will breed and be kept captive by the screen....and algae/fish poop can produce an odor  if out of balance.  Owners could find that they don't want to go near the pool to feed the fish because of the flying pests and/or stank. Not sure what the course of action (or required action by the state) would be if the owner encountered a toxic algae bloom.

As other's have mentioned.  When the owner fails (or even have a natural death),  they will need a way to dispose of some potentially large dead fish...if they succeed, they will need to find a home for some potentially large live fish (or a whole lot of small fish if they breed).  Dumping them in a water body is a no-no.  The end game when the time comes to shut down  a heavily stocked pool could be a complete nightmare of complications and expense.

Owner needs to research state DNR/Fish and Wildlife runs as well as federal Dept of Agriculture rules.  Capture and keeping of native species often at best requires a permit.  Capture and keeping of invasive species is almost always forbidden and comes with a potential fine and jail time if rules are not observed.  My impression is that after iguanas, peacocks, pythons, etc. many Florida judges are not apt to be lenient in charges involving invasive animals.

 

On 8/20/2021 at 11:21 AM, Gideyon said:

I'm curious... When you say your client, are you in pool servicing or aquarium servicing?  Or something totally different but he knows you're into fish? 

I know nothing about ponds, nor what can take care of the algae. I'd just get the professionally cleaned and then work on making a pond. 

There are fish that can handle very cold, even ice on top weather. And the pool is deep enough not to freeze over completely.  Maybe a couple dozen comets can thrive there.  But really, I know nothing.... 

 

[Brandon p]

Speaking of Mayan cichlids there’s a big one that I Caught after dinner 

[Expectorating_Aubergine]

Something this big doesn't need a mechanical filter. Just toss in floating plants and a handful of different colored mollies, a couple a goldfish and call it a day. Guys happy, local wildlife is happy and you are happy (assuming he's going to pay you)....

[Brandon p]

Just everyone knows the fish I caught did not go in the pool.