Best in tank live food

[KentFishFanUK]

On 8/20/2021 at 1:28 PM, Tankseeker said:

@KentFishFanUKjust dump it in or you can mash it a bit if you want

Thanks, so is that to feed daphnia specifically? Why lettuce? Thought they ate algae etc

[MJV Aquatics]

You really need to culture and/or collect live foods as live foods are really not sustainable in the aquarium as fish will eat them as quickly as they appear. I have many articles on my blog about live foods. I especially like white worms, daphnia, and collecting mosquito larvae in season.

[DSH OUTDOORS]

I have a number of tanks seeded with black worms.  If you have cory's they will sift through the sand and find them periodically.  In those tanks I do not see the blackworms sticking out of the substrate, only the occasional one against the glass in the substrate.  In species only tanks, whether it be angels or swordtails or other livebearers the blackworms are noticeably sticking out of the substrate.  I am sure these fish occasionally pick them off for a snack but they must not feel too pressured if they are not hiding in the substrate.

I have tried daphnia and other similar cultures with little success.  They are always in my tanks with higher populations until I put fish in, then they disappear pretty quickly.  I have no doubt they are still there, but they are a prey species so their numbers are drastically reduced once the predators are introduced.

[Guppysnail]

On 8/20/2021 at 8:27 AM, KentFishFanUK said:

When you say lettuce thing, what's going on there? Literally just feeding them lettuce or is there more to it?

When I was a kid and keeping critters from the creek I caught mom gave me lettuce to feed my snails. Once I started doing it I started having fish fry survive without me feeding them. I have since come to find I was growing infusoria in the tank. I have only found a few internet references to this so I guess it actually is a thing. I tried growing infusoria in mason jars and epically failed it stank!  So now I just hang lettuce in a spot my snails can’t get to it as much of it and let it do it’s thing. It does not affect parameters any more than plant leaf melt or decay. I just had my first batch of BN pleco hatch and did the lettuce thing and my CPD started surviving in tank (until parents hunted them down). When I do daphnia I just notice they seemed to last longer. Again not a sciencey person so how much is correlation and coincidence I have no clue. 

[KentFishFanUK]

On 8/20/2021 at 1:50 PM, Guppysnail said:

When I was a kid and keeping critters from the creek I caught mom gave me lettuce to feed my snails. Once I started doing it I started having fish fry survive without me feeding them. I have since come to find I was growing infusoria in the tank. I have only found a few internet references to this so I guess it actually is a thing. I tried growing infusoria in mason jars and epically failed it stank!  So now I just hang lettuce in a spot my snails can’t get to it as much of it and let it do it’s thing. It does not affect parameters any more than plant leaf melt or decay. I just had my first batch of BN pleco hatch and did the lettuce thing and my CPD started surviving in tank (until parents hunted them down). When I do daphnia I just notice they seemed to last longer. Again not a sciencey person so how much is correlation and coincidence I have no clue. 

Oh I see what you mean now, will look into infusoria. Maybe daphnia eat infusoria or eat the same stuff as them anyway. Thanks! 

[KentFishFanUK]

On 8/20/2021 at 1:48 PM, MJV Aquatics said:

You really need to culture and/or collect live foods as live foods are really not sustainable in the aquarium as fish will eat them as quickly as they appear. I have many articles on my blog about live foods. I especially like white worms, daphnia, and collecting mosquito larvae in season.

Yeah I plan to try out some live food cultures as well but just like the idea of the fish having stuff to hunt occasionally without extra input from me. 

In the wild they survive to some extent alongside fish, now I know that's not the same as in a tank as they haven't got anywhere to run so to speak. But I wonder if there is enough places to hide and enough to eat etc then enough could survive to be self sustaining, similar to how many people keep shrimp. Probably will have to occasionally replenish their populations but even if they survived for an extended period (rather than all gone in a single day) that would be something

[Roscoe]

I forget where I saw this, but I've seen it suggested that you can culture live food in a separate container, then set up a tube that slowly drips water from the live food container into the tank, which creates basically a little live food faucet. Might be a pain to set up but if you could manage, it would basically be a low-tech live food autofeeder, haha! Good luck 🙂

[KentFishFanUK]

On 8/20/2021 at 7:17 AM, Various Vivaria said:

If only there was an IV type device that live food could live in the bag and be slowly sucked into the tank.

That's a good idea, maybe like a breeder box that the live food could live in but with a few holes big enough that they occasionally 'escape' into the tank? 

[KentFishFanUK]

On 8/20/2021 at 1:48 PM, MJV Aquatics said:

You really need to culture and/or collect live foods as live foods are really not sustainable in the aquarium as fish will eat them as quickly as they appear. I have many articles on my blog about live foods. I especially like white worms, daphnia, and collecting mosquito larvae in season.

Where can I find your blog?

[Odd Duck]

On 8/20/2021 at 8:34 AM, Roscoe said:

I forget where I saw this, but I've seen it suggested that you can culture live food in a separate container, then set up a tube that slowly drips water from the live food container into the tank, which creates basically a little live food faucet. Might be a pain to set up but if you could manage, it would basically be a low-tech live food autofeeder, haha! Good luck 🙂

I did this years ago when I raised a clutch of Bettas.  I had an empty IV bag that I had slit open on one side at the very top.  I filled it with old tank water and a little pond water, added a little fish food if I remember, and hung it where it got sun through the window and let it build up some green color.

I kept the IV line attached with the little rolling clamp as a regulator.  I set it up to drip as slowly as possible into the tank of fry.  It kind of worked.  The main issue was keeping it dripping regularly.  Drip slowly enough to not deplete the solution and it was prone to stopping completely.  Drip quickly enough to stay dripping reliably and come home to a nearly overflowed tank and no green water left in the bag.

At the time I was very worried about too much space above the water letting more air swirl around while their tiny labyrinth organs were developing.  I’m not really sure why since it’s about gaps in the lid, not air volume above the water - it was a loooooong time ago.  All you’d have to do is drop the tank water level down a bit.

Now they make dosing pumps that are a far more reliable way to deliver very small amounts either intermittently or very slowly over time, but then you add significantly to your expense.

In theory, if your tank is stocked lightly enough, you have enough hiding places, there’s enough infusoria in the water, etc, the Daphnia could survive and breed long term.  In the real world, probably not a fully sustaining system without some input.

Blackworms don’t last in a pea puffer tank, but they don’t call them Murder Beans for nothing.  In a lightly stocked tank with fish that are more upper water feeders but will hunt from the bottom when sufficiently motivated, the black worms could be a sustained food source for a very long time if enough were added from the start and the stocking was light, etc.

Like @DSH OUTDOORSmentioned, it depends on the species you have, how they feed, how much you feed, etc.

[KentFishFanUK]

On 8/20/2021 at 6:28 PM, Odd Duck said:

I did this years ago when I raised a clutch of Bettas.  I had an empty IV bag that I had slit open on one side at the very top.  I filled it with old tank water and a little pond water, added a little fish food if I remember, and hung it where it got sun through the window and let it build up some green color.

I kept the IV line attached with the little rolling clamp as a regulator.  I set it up to drip as slowly as possible into the tank of fry.  It kind of worked.  The main issue was keeping it dripping regularly.  Drip slowly enough to not deplete the solution and it was prone to stopping completely.  Drip quickly enough to stay dripping reliably and come home to a nearly overflowed tank and no green water left in the bag.

At the time I was very worried about too much space above the water letting more air swirl around while their tiny labyrinth organs were developing.  I’m not really sure why since it’s about gaps in the lid, not air volume above the water - it was a loooooong time ago.  All you’d have to do is drop the tank water level down a bit.

Now they make dosing pumps that are a far more reliable way to deliver very small amounts either intermittently or very slowly over time, but then you add significantly to your expense.

In theory, if your tank is stocked lightly enough, you have enough hiding places, there’s enough infusoria in the water, etc, the Daphnia could survive and breed long term.  In the real world, probably not a fully sustaining system without some input.

Blackworms don’t last in a pea puffer tank, but they don’t call them Murder Beans for nothing.  In a lightly stocked tank with fish that are more upper water feeders but will hunt from the bottom when sufficiently motivated, the black worms could be a sustained food source for a very long time if enough were added from the start and the stocking was light, etc.

Like @DSH OUTDOORSmentioned, it depends on the species you have, how they feed, how much you feed, etc.

Regarding the "enough hiding places" etc, what do you think would be the best way to provide it? And enough infusoria? 

[Odd Duck]

On 8/20/2021 at 12:38 PM, KentFishFanUK said:

Regarding the "enough hiding places" etc, what do you think would be the best way to provide it? And enough infusoria? 

For Daphnia specifically, I would provide lots of fine plants, let hair and other algae grow like mad, overfeed enough to keep a tiny green tinge to the water, etc.  That would probably be the only way it would reach a self sustaining balance of fish and live food constantly available.

Not many people want their tank to look like that, though!  😆 But that’s what we do when we provide a pond outside that raises fry with minimal effort.  We are only feeding the older fry and adults, the infusoria present are feeding the very young fry.

If we ever add Daphnia to a tub like that, especially if we add them before the fish, they will likely stay present at low levels, even with a fairly heavy fish population (as long as we have all the hiding spots, etc, present).

If the fish were all netted out, the infusoria and Daphnia would increase quickly and you would have heavy green water for a while until the balance reestablished from lack of ongoing food input, then it would somewhat clear.  If the tub/pond had a lot of leaf fall input, it would self perpetuate from rotting leaves.  That’s what nature does in a pond.

[Torrey]

If you want a steady supply of live foods, I recommend a Walstad start.

I followed Dr. Diana Walstad's advice and didn't sift the soil.

I soaked in a 5 gallon bucket and skimmed the top to eliminate oil film, but I left the bits of wood and mulch in, as this is an easy way to introduce microfauna.

I put in 3" of soil, and cap with an inch of sand, plant as many plants as I have available. 

As soon as the ammonia is fully converted to nitrates, I add blackworms, snail and amphopods (unless it's going to be a shrimp tank).

Once there are close to a dozen blackworms per square inch, and the plants have completed their melt/grow/melt/thrive, the tank is ready for fish. I rarely have to supplement feed small batches of fry this way, and beneficial bacteria will grow in relationship to the fry.

 

When it's time to take the batch to the LFS, rinse a blackworm culture in a sieve (so blackworms get stuck) and put the mesh sieve in the tank. The fish swim into the sieve to eat the worms, and are easy to scoop without destroying plants. 

Use liquid fertilizer until next batch of fry are ready, and watch your microfauna population bounce back.

[gardenman]

I keep a Fluval breeder box set up on my tanks with some plants/moss in them and a snail or two. Lots of life tends to appear in the box and then trickle into the tanks. I just add a flake or two of food to the box each feeding and the snails eat most of it. Is it enough to feed the tank? Not even close, but some live food trickles in all the time this way. I get detritus worms, daphnia and God only knows what else in that water. Here's a photo of my ten gallon tank with too many Neon Swordtails and Super Red plecos in it and the breeder box with some java moss in it and a few snails. The Fluval breeder boxes use an airlift tube to gently circulate tank water through the box and then back to the tank, so some of the life in the box goes out with the water. 

 

[Atitagain]

On 8/20/2021 at 1:32 AM, Patrick_G said:

Here’s a good video on culturing black worms. 

 

I know you posted this awhile back but this is a really good video I just got some black worms from my LFS and gonna give his method a try. Thank you 

[Guppysnail]

On 11/26/2021 at 7:29 PM, Atitagain said:

I know you posted this awhile back but this is a really good video I just got some black worms from my LFS and gonna give his method a try. Thank you 

@Torrey and @Daniel and I think @Fish Folk run successful blackworm colonies if you need advice there are some dynamite threads awhile ago on it. 

[Patrick_G]

@Atitagain I really want to try and get a culture going. My wife wants to feed them to her Dwarf Frogs so I think I’ll have some help. 

[Atitagain]

@Patrick_G I wanted to get it set up tonight but had an emergency in my cichlids tank. So I had to place them in fridge for now. I would like to set something up that will be long term I’ve read a lot about cultures crashing. But I think those are the short term in refrigerator types. I will be setting up a 10G (smallest tank I have) dedicated to them. Unheated (68F), 1/3 full of water, some kind of DIY sponge filter, light layer of gravel, and a couple plants.

ive seen somewhere, and I will research more but any suggestions on what to feed them?

[Torrey]

On 11/26/2021 at 8:55 PM, Atitagain said:

@Patrick_G I wanted to get it set up tonight but had an emergency in my cichlids tank. So I had to place them in fridge for now. I would like to set something up that will be long term I’ve read a lot about cultures crashing. But I think those are the short term in refrigerator types. I will be setting up a 10G (smallest tank I have) dedicated to them. Unheated (68F), 1/3 full of water, some kind of DIY sponge filter, light layer of gravel, and a couple plants.

ive seen somewhere, and I will research more but any suggestions on what to feed them?

in the fridge, I feed them like @Guppysnail feeds snails, just change the food every 24 hours. Run them under filtered water, and replace yesterday's courgette slice with an unsalted green bean.

Tomorrow, I'll add paper thin sliced carrot pieces. 

Faster way to get the blackworms to reproduce is to put ~ 3" of soil. I don't sift, the blackworms like the wood chunks and will eat microfauna, in addition to pretty much any vegetable slice you drop in.

Make sure to remove any leftovers after 24 hours.

Once or twice each month (every 2 to 3 weeks) I run the liquid transfer pump which seems to be doing a great job dicing the worms into acceptable sizes for regrowth. 

Personally, I prefer effectively seeding new tanks, and giving the blackworms a protected area (like a turtle safe plant box full of soil) to multiply. Fish do a great job biting them in half.

**THE MOST IMPORTANT THING**

Blackworms like cooler temps. Above 72° their metabolism generates a really short lifespan. A deeper substrate will give them a cooler area to hang out.

When taking blackworms out of the fridge, try to match their breeding colony tank to the temp of the fridge water, and allow them to warm up slowly. Otherwise, a large percentage of your culture will die.😬

[Atitagain]

@TorreyAlright TY, great info!