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New Tank, Couple of Deaths, Trying to find the issue


DarthRevan
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Hey everyone, 

I finally got my very first tank started on Saturday! Everything seemed to be going fine yesterday, but today I woke up and had two deaths. I have a 40 breeder, 6 platys, 7 ottos, and a betta. I lost one platy and one otto so far. 
 

The tank is brand new and was not fully cycled, I was told by two LFS that I could just add some Fritz Turbostart 700 to get it going. I have a Seachem Tidal 55 filter packed with sponges, and a few plants/moss bunches (getting many more today). 
 

I tested the water yesterday with an API master test kit because I was worried I was over feeding cause I have no idea how to feed a community tank. I tried the 2 minute rule but not all the fish got food, especially my betta. After the test, the ammonia test was a pale yellow so I’m thinking the ammonia is between 0-.25. Nitrites were 0, I didn’t test for nitrates. 
 

This morning I immediately tested after removing the bodies, and ammonia was between .25-.50. Nitrites are 0 and Nitrates were between 10-20. 
 

I’m not 100% sure the issue is water quality cause the rest of the fish seem fine, not gasping or anything and moving around like normal. One platy is very aggressive and almost constantly chases the females and my betta. I’m removing him ASAP, but I’m not sure if that’s why one of the platys died. As for the ottos, they’ve been sucking on the wood I have in there, but I haven’t been able to feed them cause I know there’s no algae in my tank yet besides on the wood from soaking it. I bought some Hikari algae wafers but they have fish/krill in them and the ottos wouldn’t touch it, and the platys were attacking it so they couldn’t get some anyway. 
 

So I’m not sure if it’s water, harassment/stress, or starvation. I know the level of ammonia is toxic right now, I’m going to be doing a water change ASAP but I would expect the other fish to not be doing well if it was water quality. 
 

After the water change I’m adding another 1oz of Fritz Turbostart and keeping an eye on everything for the day. Does anyone have any thoughts/suggestions/theories? 

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 It's going to be a rough start for the fish, until the tank is cycled. Doing water changes will help, Add as many plants as you can, the more the better. If you use city water then also use something to take care of the chlorine when you do your water changes.

Go light on feeding, however your otos are most likely going to need something. They are typically wild caught and are almost starving by the time you get them. Blanched spinach or zuchini might help.
 

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On 8/16/2021 at 9:11 AM, Griznatch said:

 It's going to be a rough start for the fish, until the tank is cycled. Doing water changes will help, Add as many plants as you can, the more the better. If you use city water then also use something to take care of the chlorine when you do your water changes.

Go light on feeding, however your otos are most likely going to need something. They are typically wild caught and are almost starving by the time you get them. Blanched spinach or zuchini might help.
 

Oh yeah I have API water conditioner whenever I put new water in the tank (which I’ve only done once when I filled it). I’ll try the vegetables, hopefully they will eat it and not get outcompeted by the platys. 
 

I’ve been trying to go light on the fish food, but my betta hasn’t been getting any, by the time he realizes there’s food it’s mostly gone. And the platys usually pick up any leftovers on the substrate 

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The ammonia level doesn't seem high enough to have killed the fish. Often, fish die from the shock of being shipped, and that may be what happened to your fish. There is no way to know what the fish went through in being shipped to your LFS.

But the ammonia level appears to be rising, so you need to monitor it closely and control it with water changes.

I don't think you should rely on bacteria-in-a-bottle. It seems to me that, if that worked, nobody would ever cycle a tank any other way. But I don't see many folks recommending that you buy a new tank, put some fish in it, and pour in some instant bacteria, all on the first day. But I guess your LFS did recommend that. It makes sense if you believe what it says on the bottle, and I am sure your LFS guy did believe it. I just would not recommend that.

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I would guess the initial deaths aren’t related to the uncycled tank. 
@Griznatch is right, it’s going to be a little rough going through the cycle with so many fish in the tank. Seachem Prime conditioner is the best thing to use because it’ll neutralize the harmful toxins before your beneficial bacteria have grown sufficiently. Adding plants will help use up some ammonia and Nitrite and also bring in some beneficial bacteria to jump start your colony. 

Edited by Patrick_G
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On 8/16/2021 at 12:19 PM, DarthRevan said:

I’ve been trying to go light on the fish food, but my betta hasn’t been getting any, by the time he realizes there’s food it’s mostly gone. 

Does your betta interact with you? Can you maybe feed him some pellets on the side? My betta was in a smaller tank by himself before the community so he was used to that. But now that is is in the bigger tank - he will still swims up to me and I can just drop a pellet right in front of him. 

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Is the betta getting the same food?   They typically prefer floating foods. But generally, they don't eat when they're getting used to a new tank. 

I don't know if it'll work in a community tank, but maybe a feeding ring for the betta's food.   While the others their food sinks and they'll chase after it. 

I have no experience with otos, but I've seen people boil a cucumber slice and put in there.  Or maybe I dreamt that.  

Edited by Gideyon
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So I wasn’t too sure about the bacteria in a bottle thing either, but long story short I was talked into buying some fish before my tank was even set up, and he said he’d hold them. A lot of items got delayed from Amazon and he basically said you need to come get your fish (after about 2 weeks). So I was in a hurry and him and another store said the Fritz would be fine. I also thought it would be ok since the tank was about half stocked (if you follow the 1 inch of fish/gallon rule). 
 

They did say I would get slight ammonia spikes, then nitrite, then eventually I would just have nitrates like a normal cycle, just over about a week instead of weeks. Also Fritz is refrigerated so it was recommended more highly than the other bacteria products. But I think I should still do a 30% water change at least since the ammonia is getting up there. But you guys are right I don’t think doing an accelerated cycle is a great idea. Lesson learned I guess lol. 
 

I have plants on the way from Aquarium Coop, they are supposed to be delivered this afternoon so I will be planting the tank more heavily. At the moment I have a few bunches of Java moss, 3 Mexican oak leaf stems, 2 Anubias coffefolia, and two crypts. 
 

As for feeding my betta, he is starting to interact with me more but my glass is reflective so he’s spending a lot of time chasing himself. He doesn’t flare at all, just swims back and forth. Not sure if that’s normal or if it’s aggressive/stressed behavior. This morning I waited until I could get his attention and he did eat a few bites. At the moment I’m feeding Hikari vibra bites in the morning (a small pinch) and Xtreme community flakes at night. I also just checked on my remaining ottos and they all seem to have full bellies. They’ve been stuck on the wood most of the time so I’m not sure what they’re eating cause I know the glass and rocks don’t have any algae yet.

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A couple of thoughts:

1) The tank went from zero to 14 fish instantly. That is a big increase in bioload all at once. I do think the bottled bacteria works, but usually is better paired with a very slow, incremental increase in bioload. Nothing to beat yourself over, and thankfully it's a relatively large volume of water which helps. I think a daily "dose" of bottled bacteria will help as well. Sometimes one-and-done just isn't enough.

2) As mentioned, Prime would be a great dechlorinator for you, as it can "detoxify" any ammonia you may get for 24-48 hours. There are folks who literally rely solely on Prime to get through the full cycle.

3) Another possible culprit of the fish deaths could be osmotic shock. Usually this can occur if your water is significantly different (PH/GH) than the water they came from, without proper acclimation to the new water.

I am curious what your PH/GH/KH values are, and if they are close to the store's water.

I also wanted to welcome you to the hobby. Just the fact that you are here on this forum is a great sign that you will be a great fishkeeper. Mistakes will happen...don't beat yourself up over them. We are always learning, and that means we will always improve, which also up's the enjoyment and satisfaction!

 

Edited by quikv6
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On 8/16/2021 at 11:46 AM, quikv6 said:

A couple of thoughts:

1) The tank went from zero to 14 fish instantly. That is a big increase in bioload all at once. I do think the bottled bacteria works, but usually is better paired with a very slow, incremental increase in bioload. Nothing to beat yourself over, and thankfully it's a relatively large volume of water which helps. I think a daily "dose" of bottled bacteria will help as well. Sometimes one-and-done just isn't enough.

2) As mentioned, Prime would be a great dechlorinator for you, as it can "detoxify" any ammonia you may get for 24-48 hours. There are folks who literally rely solely on Prime to get through the full cycle.

3) Another possible culprit of the fish deaths could be osmotic shock. Usually this can occur if your water is significantly different (PH/GH) than the water they came from, without proper acclimation to the new water.

I am curious what your PH/GH/KH values are, and if they are close to the store's water.

I also wanted to welcome you to the hobby. Just the fact that you are here on this forum is a great sign that you will be a great fishkeeper. Mistakes will happen...don't beat yourself up over them. We are always learning, and that means we will always improve, which also up's the enjoyment and satisfaction!

 

That is true I didn’t think of it that way. I was like “oh it’s only ‘half’ stocked so it’ll be fine.” I just did about a 40-50% water change, added another dose of API dechlorinator and another 1oz of Fritz. 
 

For the Prime, do the bacteria still eat the detoxified ammonia to continue the cycle? I saw it and I was worried after reading it I’d have a bacteria die off because I’m removing all the ammonia. 
 

Now that I think about it it could’ve been temperature. I live in Phoenix, AZ and our water is very hard. Our KH is 161ppm and GH is well over 200, not sure by how much though. But the LFS near me all raise their fish in our tap water. In fact I had a few fish I had bought and left at the store for a week die, and I was told it’s because they were raised in RO water. But I didn’t have a heater, so the tank got down to 76, but it started at 90 before I added them because our tap water comes out hot no matter what. So they sat in a bag for about 5 hours until I could get the temp down. Then it dropped overnight. So that may have been it. 
 

I just did a water change and it raised the tank temp up to 82 before I saw the thermometer and now another otto is struggling. I’m not sure what to do about that because I use the cold tap and it comes out hot anyway. 
 

The good news though is that the rest of them are fine, the tank is clean now, water parameters are holding steady (temp is slowly dropping, it’s at 80 now and my heater is in the tank set to 78 since it just came in). I also just got my shipment from the Coop and got all the plants planted. So I’ll see how it goes over the next couple of days now that everything should hold steady. 

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On 8/16/2021 at 11:59 AM, DarthRevan said:

Hey everyone, 

I finally got my very first tank started on Saturday! Everything seemed to be going fine yesterday, but today I woke up and had two deaths. I have a 40 breeder, 6 platys, 7 ottos, and a betta. I lost one platy and one otto so far. 
 

The tank is brand new and was not fully cycled, I was told by two LFS that I could just add some Fritz Turbostart 700 to get it going. I have a Seachem Tidal 55 filter packed with sponges, and a few plants/moss bunches (getting many more today). 
 

I tested the water yesterday with an API master test kit because I was worried I was over feeding cause I have no idea how to feed a community tank. I tried the 2 minute rule but not all the fish got food, especially my betta. After the test, the ammonia test was a pale yellow so I’m thinking the ammonia is between 0-.25. Nitrites were 0, I didn’t test for nitrates. 
 

This morning I immediately tested after removing the bodies, and ammonia was between .25-.50. Nitrites are 0 and Nitrates were between 10-20. 
 

I’m not 100% sure the issue is water quality cause the rest of the fish seem fine, not gasping or anything and moving around like normal. One platy is very aggressive and almost constantly chases the females and my betta. I’m removing him ASAP, but I’m not sure if that’s why one of the platys died. As for the ottos, they’ve been sucking on the wood I have in there, but I haven’t been able to feed them cause I know there’s no algae in my tank yet besides on the wood from soaking it. I bought some Hikari algae wafers but they have fish/krill in them and the ottos wouldn’t touch it, and the platys were attacking it so they couldn’t get some anyway. 
 

So I’m not sure if it’s water, harassment/stress, or starvation. I know the level of ammonia is toxic right now, I’m going to be doing a water change ASAP but I would expect the other fish to not be doing well if it was water quality. 
 

After the water change I’m adding another 1oz of Fritz Turbostart and keeping an eye on everything for the day. Does anyone have any thoughts/suggestions/theories? 

this will help Emergency: Performing a Fish-in Cycle The RIGHT Way - FishLab

and always do research for yourself when it comes to keeping fish.

I have learned this the hard way 1 to many times, matter in fact not to long ago.

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Welp, bad news. Just lost another Otto. I know for sure this was due to temp. My tank went from 76 to 82 in like an hour due to my tap water coming out hot. It’s cooled back down to 80 though and it’s holding steady. Hopefully I don’t lose anymore, but it seems like I should’ve gotten plecos or waited until my tank was established 😞 

Thank you for the article @TankofFish I will follow that guide!!

@quikv6 that is perfect. I’m getting some tomorrow before work! Fingers crossed. 

Edited by DarthRevan
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I started my 20 gallon long with a seeded filter, plants, substrate, fritz turbo 700, and too many fish (guppies). The ammonia levels never got above .5 ppm but it stayed there for weeks. I used prime to ensure the ammonia and nitrites were detoxed. Maybe that added to the cycling period, no idea. All I can say is the process was more stressful and took far longer than I thought it would. My advice, test often (I did every day), research how to do a fish in cycle with prime and keep cool. It will all work out, but again, it took longer than I thought it would.

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On 8/16/2021 at 8:12 PM, Chad said:

I started my 20 gallon long with a seeded filter, plants, substrate, fritz turbo 700, and too many fish (guppies). The ammonia levels never got above .5 ppm but it stayed there for weeks. I used prime to ensure the ammonia and nitrites were detoxed. Maybe that added to the cycling period, no idea. All I can say is the process was more stressful and took far longer than I thought it would. My advice, test often (I did every day), research how to do a fish in cycle with prime and keep cool. It will all work out, but again, it took longer than I thought it would.

Yeah that’s what I’m running into as well. I’ve watched so many videos from Aquarium Coop, Prime Time Aquatics, Girl Talks Fish, etc I should’ve known better than to believe I could just throw a bottle of bacteria in and have an instantly cycled tank. That’s basically what two of my local fish stores (not Petco/Petsmart, actual mom and pop stores) told me. 
 

I have been testing every day and I will definitely continue that. I’m getting a bottle of Prime tomorrow, and now that I have my heater in the tank I’m hoping it’ll stay around 78 so I don’t keep having massive temperature swings. 
 

Also, does anyone know a good way to make sure your tap water stays cool? I thought maybe my hot and cold knobs were flipped but no, my tap just runs at 80 or higher during the summer (again I live in Phoenix, AZ it’s 100+ here 24/7 until November/December). I don’t want to get a chiller but I’m thinking that may be what I have to do to keep the water temp stable when I do water changes. 

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@DarthRevan do what I do, put your water change water out the day before. I actually use empty 1 gallon water bottles, leave them in the room overnight (treated) and then use them the next day- but I only have 20 gallon tanks that only require up to 5 gallon water changes in an emergency but I keep 9 gallons. I always have those bottles at the ready. You might have to go the 5 gallon bucket (or 5 gallon water bottles) route because of the 40, but if this situation is temporary it will be helpful if temperature has been a problem for you, it will at least help you rule that out. 

Edited by xXInkedPhoenixX
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On 8/16/2021 at 9:02 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@DarthRevan do what I do, put your water change water out the day before. I actually use empty 1 gallon water bottles, leave them in the room overnight (treated) and then use them the next day- but I only have 20 gallon tanks that only require up to 5 gallon water changes in an emergency but I keep 9 gallons. I always have those bottles at the ready. You might have to go the 5 gallon bucket (or 5 gallon water bottles) route because of the 40, but if this situation is temporary it will be helpful if temperature has been a problem for you, it will at least help you rule that out. 

That is an excellent idea, I will try that! Plus it will make less of a mess dealing with my Aqueon water changer that I had to rig up to extend an extra 25ft lol. It would be so much easier to just drain it with the water changer then just dump in water from a bucket/jug. Thank you!

 

And thank you to everyone else who helped me today, you guys are great and I’m glad we have this resource!

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So after the water change yesterday and finally getting a heater installed, I think the tank is relatively stable now. No one died last night and everyone seems happy. The ottos are stuck to some hair algae growing on my moss bonsai tree, the platys aren’t gasping anymore, and the betta is active and eating. I think the issue was mainly the major temperature swings over the last couple of days. 
 

I’m still testing for ammonia it seems to be sitting steady between .25 and .50, if it spikes I’ll dose some Prime. 
 

Thanks again for the help and advice everyone!

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Firstly I love your handle, one of my favorite characters in the novelizations. I’m sorry the LFS folks led you astray. I’m glad you’re here and are trying to educate yourself. That article from Fish Lab is great. 

I think continuing a regular water change regimen of every other day or so will be needed. Testing every day and dosing prime as needed for any detectable ammonia. Dosing beneficial bacteria from the bottle will help. Between that and the fish food and poop you’ll be cycled in the coming weeks.

Your plants will be helpful. I would consider utilizing a floating plant either something like water lettuce, red root floaters or frog bit vs guppy grass or hornwort- they will suck up all the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. they can be used during this transitional period to aide your cycle and protect your fish.

Good luck and feel free to ask lots of questions. A ton of experience and nice folks on here. 

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On 8/17/2021 at 8:01 PM, Beardedbillygoat1975 said:

Firstly I love your handle, one of my favorite characters in the novelizations. I’m sorry the LFS folks led you astray. I’m glad you’re here and are trying to educate yourself. That article from Fish Lab is great. 

I think continuing a regular water change regimen of every other day or so will be needed. Testing every day and dosing prime as needed for any detectable ammonia. Dosing beneficial bacteria from the bottle will help. Between that and the fish food and poop you’ll be cycled in the coming weeks.

Your plants will be helpful. I would consider utilizing a floating plant either something like water lettuce, red root floaters or frog bit vs guppy grass or hornwort- they will suck up all the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. they can be used during this transitional period to aide your cycle and protect your fish.

Good luck and feel free to ask lots of questions. A ton of experience and nice folks on here. 

Knights of the Old Republic is one of my favorite games so I had to incorporate it haha!

And yeah this is the first place I go to when I have questions or issues! There’s a great community here 😄

 

That was pretty much my plan, except the Prime but I’m glad several people brought that up because it will definitely make it easier and save some fish!

 

I actually was getting some mini water lettuce from OfferUp, but the person ran out so now I’m trying to find people or LFS that would sell any floating plants (besides duckweed, it grows too fast for my tastes). Especially because my light seems pretty bright (it’s a Stingray 2.0 and most people say it’s “low light,” but it is still pretty bright) and my betta will probably appreciate the shade. I’m just hoping it doesn’t overshadow my Monte Carlo or scarlet temple too much because I know they need as much light as possible. I’ve seen some people use airline tubing so I may try that method to keep some areas clear. 

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