pH and KH issues (Safe T Sorb)

[Hobbit]

On 8/18/2021 at 2:04 PM, Gideyon said:

This liquid test - how is this not the most ridiculous type of testing?   The strips were so much easier.  How do you intend to put a drop, cap, shake, uncap, drop, cap, repeat until it goes from one color to the next?   After one drop it was already yellow.  What?     The strips still indicates 40 after the water change.  Am I doing something wrong?

1-3 drops = 0-50ppm, so your tests technically agree. None of these tests are super exact. You’re not doing anything wrong.

This kind of testing (titration) is really common in chemistry. It’s definitely easier when you have a beaker on a stir plate so you don’t have to do any capping and shaking. But it’s still everyone’s least favorite lab day in high school/college. 😅

[Gideyon]

Well I realized I wasn't shaking after the first drop.   I did the test again just now.  

3 dKH and 6 or 7 dGH (hard to tell if 2 drops went in together). 

I'll use this as a baseline for tomorrow's test. Because my UGF is off, I don't know if the bottom most substrate has absorbed much of the carbonate.  But I really don't want to buy yet another thing right now.  So I'll leave it like this.  If kh is higher or the same, I'll turn off the bubbler and turn on the UGF and test again. 

 

Update: I changed my mind. I'll switch the air to the UGF tonight. Since the coral never leaves the tank, and I placed it close to the intake of the HOB, it should still get some water movement, and try to get the carbonate down to the bottom. 

I know I could place it in the HOB, but I just don't have the room. If I end up needing the crushed coral long term, I'd rather it be separate. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Gideyon

[Gideyon]

On 8/18/2021 at 2:19 PM, Patrick_G said:

Here’s a paper on the properties  of laterite. I have a hunch it’s pulling your ph down. I’m sure there are other factors in this situation but I’m thinking the laterite is doing the heavy lifting. 
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/247194/

It seemed like the pH was based on other present factors apart from the laterite.  Or did I miss the point? 

[Patrick_G]

On 8/18/2021 at 12:04 PM, Gideyon said:

It seemed like the pH was based on other present factors apart from the laterite.  Or did I miss the point? 

I might be the one missing something. I think the variables in this study were the location the material was gathered. 

I’d mix up some of your laterite in a quart of water and see how it affects your the PH. If it doesn’t have any effect then you can rule it out. 

[Gideyon]

Well.... Less than 24 hours later, KH seems to be 0. The vial never even turned blue. Ph is dropping in the 6's. Hardness is only 4 dGH.  Which was surprising. 

I turned on the bubbler again and will just leave it on.  Maybe it's not dissolving fast enough.  

[Mmiller2001]

On 8/19/2021 at 11:31 AM, Gideyon said:

Well.... Less than 24 hours later, KH seems to be 0. The vial never even turned blue. Ph is dropping in the 6's. Hardness is only 4 dGH.  Which was surprising. 

I turned on the bubbler again and will just leave it on.  Maybe it's not dissolving fast enough.  

What kin of fish are you going to keep?

[Gideyon]

On 8/19/2021 at 1:40 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

What kin of fish are you going to keep?

At the moment I'm leading towards white clouds.  I may cave in and get another betta.  But I wanted to test the limits with bioload with anoxic filtration.  But there's no cycle without carbonate. 

[Mmiller2001]

On 8/19/2021 at 11:50 AM, Gideyon said:

At the moment I'm leading towards white clouds.  I may cave in and get another betta.  But I wanted to test the limits with bioload with anoxic filtration.  But there's no cycle without carbonate. 

Nitrification continues even in low pH, that's a misunderstanding that's been kind of passed down through the internet. 

Just be patient with it, it's going to take several months for it to stop absorbing your carbonates. Maybe less maybe more, but it takes time.

I keep my tanks at 4GH and 0KH and many others do too. Just FYI. I think minnows like a neutral pH, so it makes sense to have some KH.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Mmiller2001

[Gideyon]

On 8/19/2021 at 2:57 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Nitrification continues even in low pH, that's a misunderstanding that's been kind of passed down through the internet. 

Just be patient with it, it's going to take several months for it to stop absorbing your carbonates. Maybe less maybe more, but it takes time.

I keep my tanks at 4GH and 0KH and many others do too. Just FYI. I think minnows like a neutral pH, so it makes sense to have some KH.

I thought carbonate was needed for nitrification?   I remember reading that somewhere. 

 

Another possibility are standard endlers 

[CT_]

On 8/19/2021 at 12:13 PM, Gideyon said:

I thought carbonate was needed for nitrification?   I remember reading that somewhere. 

 

Another possibility are standard endlers 

There have been studies showing that the most well know nitrifying bacteria work best at higher ph (high 7's into 8s) and will die off or go dormant if you lower or raise the ph too much beyond that.  I think that's the source of the "misinformation".

 

There was also one study that showed that the majority of aquaria have nitrifying archea and not bacteria (I think at least for the first step iirc).  Frankly there's a lot of chemotrophic microbes so who knows what ones you have in your tank and aquarists and researchers have shown nitrification at lower pHs as well.

[Gideyon]

On 8/19/2021 at 5:47 PM, CT_ said:

There have been studies showing that the most well know nitrifying bacteria work best at higher ph (high 7's into 8s) and will die off or go dormant if you lower or raise the ph too much beyond that.  I think that's the source of the "misinformation".

 

There was also one study that showed that the majority of aquaria have nitrifying archea and not bacteria (I think at least for the first step iirc).  Frankly there's a lot of chemotrophic microbes so who knows what ones you have in your tank and aquarists and researchers have shown nitrification at lower pHs as well.

Archea?   You've just sent me down a rabbit hole of more learning..... 

 

[CT_]

On 8/19/2021 at 3:30 PM, Gideyon said:

Archea?   You've just sent me down a rabbit hole of more learning..... 

Yeah, but i spelled it wrong 😮
Archaea the correct spelling.  Bacteria and Archaea split off the family tree of life a LONG time ago so now they're kinda their own thing.

[Gideyon]

Today was a little encouraging.  Without a water change, my pH is above 7.   But appears unstable and the kh looks to be 0 still.   

First test 7.2.    Retest 7.6... It could be higher but I didn't test the high range. 

I went ahead and put the crushed coral in the HOB this morning. A lot of dust came out. I did rinse and it was in the bubbler for a few days. Not sure what happened there.  But if it's crushed coral dust, it can only help... Right? 

Maybe that is contributing to the sudden ph rise. 

I'll test again tomorrow maybe.  Hopefully things are more stable. 

I'm going to be gone for a few days on Monday.  I'm tempted to just put in the ammonia before that if there are some signs of stability. I remember reading the pH swings can disrupt the cycle.  But if kh isn't needed, I might just do it. I got no fish to lose... 

[Hobbit]

I bet the dust raised your pH. I usually don’t rinse my crushed oyster shell if I’m trying really hard to get the pH up. 😄

Sounds like you’re making progress!

[Mmiller2001]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1489657/

[NanoNano]

Been reading along- lots of great info/observation/collaboration 😀.  

One thing to be on the look out for (that I Iearned from Fluval substrate)- With buffering substrates,  you can encounter situations where the PH at the substrate surface level can be *substantially* different than in the water column.  I've run into conditions where inverts (shrimp and snails) seemed to be thriving while on plants or decor,  but ended up in serious distress/death if/when they came in contact with the substrate. 

Edited August 20, 2021 by NanoNano

[Patrick_G]

On 8/20/2021 at 10:42 AM, NanoNano said:

Been reading along- lots of great info/observation/collaboration 😀.  

One thing to be on the look out for (that I Iearned from Fluval substrate)- With buffering substrates,  you can encounter situations where the PH at the substrate surface level can be *substantially* different than in the water column.  I've run into conditions where inverts (shrimp and snails) seemed to be thriving while on plants or decor,  but ended up in serious distress/death if/when they came in contact with the substrate. 

Good to know. How would I test PH at different levels? 

[Gideyon]

On 8/20/2021 at 1:46 PM, Patrick_G said:

Good to know. How would I test PH at different levels? 

If I had to guess, with a syringe, suck up water just below the substrate. 

[NanoNano]

On 8/20/2021 at 10:46 AM, Patrick_G said:

Good to know. How would I test PH at different levels? 

I've scooped some of the substrate from the tank into a small container, drained out all but a little bit of water, let it sit for as long as my patience allowed me to, and then done a dip strip test.  My method is likely flawed and inaccurate,  but I got pH readings in the mid 6s from the substrate in the container and the low to mid 7s directly from the same tank's water column the few times that I've tried this with "new" Fluval substrate.

Edit- To be perfectly clear- the issue that I've encountered has been with new stratum (out of the bag to 3-months or so submerged) and has required that inverts bodies come in direct contact physical with the substrate.  Hanging on decor just above the substrate or sitting on live/dead plant matter that's in contact with the substrate and there's no problems.  As soon as the invert touches the substrate,  it's like they've touched an electric fence.  Snails curl in distress and shrimp keel over paralyzed from which they rarely recover.

Edited August 20, 2021 by NanoNano

[Gideyon]

pH is 6.4.  Kh 0. Gh also dropped to 30.

 

But I am going to go ahead and start the cycle and document on the other thread. 

Thanks all for the help.  If I see anything developing in regards to ph and KH, I'll update here. 

[Gideyon]

I put in 2.5 tsp of baking soda yesterday.  pH went up to 7.5 and KH was high enough to lose count with the drops. Maybe close to 15dKH.  

24 hours later, pH stayed the same, KH lowered to about 8dKH.  The strips said 80ppm.

I could wait longer to see if the KH continues to drop, but I'm hoping I "filled up" the substrate. 

[Mmiller2001]

Keep in mind, adding baking soda for KH adds salt to the water too.

[Gideyon]

On 8/29/2021 at 3:34 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Keep in mind, adding baking soda for KH adds salt to the water too.

Enough to kill bacteria? 

I'm hoping to do a huge water changes once the cycle goes a couple of times and pH is stable. 

[Mmiller2001]

On 8/29/2021 at 2:12 PM, Gideyon said:

Enough to kill bacteria? 

I'm hoping to do a huge water changes once the cycle goes a couple of times and pH is stable. 

I'd be more worried about plants. Water changing the salt out will work.

If you want to add KH, I recommend potassium carbonate or potassium bicarbonate going forward.

[Hobbit]

I use small amounts of baking soda on the regular because my water’s so soft. I’ve never seen an effect on my plants—but then again my plants are nowhere near as pretty as @Mmiller2001’s 😁 But I agree that if you have calcium carbonate or potassium carbonate, that’s even better.