10 Gallon with Anoxic Filtration

[Gideyon]

On 8/15/2021 at 1:01 AM, Grant said:

High levels of dissolved organic compounds (yellow frothy water)

What do you think that was?   Because of dead plant matter? 

I saw brownish frothy water in some places when I first added water.  I saw a little less after a water change.  And I have nothing organic in the tank.  I just can't discount any dead bugs while I sifted and rinsed the substrate outside. 

On another thread I started to try to solve my kh/ph issue, one theory is that the clay is absorbing the carbonate from the water. Once it fully absorbs, it should stabilize.  That's the hope at least. I'll test again on Monday. 

Even if it does stabilize, I'm considering putting a little crushed coral in the tank.  Maybe a small amount in hob. To raise the kh above 40. 

[Gideyon]

After dealing with some pH issues as a result of my substrate (that's the theory at least), and thanks to all those who helped with that, I think I'm ready to start the cycle.  Ph isn't quite stable, but it's above 6 which makes me comfortable enough. 

Baseline numbers:

PH: 6.4

Kh: 0

Gh: 30

Ammonia: 0.25

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 5

Temp: 70 degrees

I added 10 drops of Dr Tim's ammonia.  The directions said 4 per gallon, but I did 1. I've been reading that people were getting ammonia levels that were off the chart. I'll check tonight if it's at 2ppm. 

What's changed in the tank... 

I put my ceramics in the tank.   Crushed coral is in the HOB until the pH stabilizes.  A little spilled into the tank. 

After tomorrow, I won't be able to update or do anything for maybe a week or less.  

 

 

 

[Gideyon]

I had a free moment so I thought I'd check the ammonia.   It was still 0.25 if not lower.   

Then I remembered I didn't dechlorinate.  It's been a few days but maybe it's still in there and cleaned up the ammonia.

I added a dose of Prime and added 10 more drops of ammonia. 

If it was fine and I just needed to wait, well... I guess I'll have a high ammonia reading tonight. 

 

Update :  I think the dosage recommendation was correct. After I put ten more drops, it was 0.50.    So I went ahead and did 20 more drops.  I'll check again at night if it's 2 ppm. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Gideyon

[Gideyon]

I need some help with colors.  I have a total of 40 drops of Dr Tim's in my tank. But the colors don't look like it's even close to 2ppm.

But maybe it's because I'm not good with color shades. 

The right most vial is a few hours after the test.  Middle is a few hours later.   Left is this morning - maybe 18 hours after the drops. 

[Gideyon]

So for whatever reason, after 40 drops, my ammonia is 0.5ppm after 24 hours. 

I don't have time to figure that out.  Maybe my substrate decided to absorb that too.  Or I have a faulty bottle of Dr Tim's. 🤷

I'll see how things are in the latter end of the week.    No time to add and test anymore. 

[Gideyon]

Update:  nothing changed in the last 5 or so days since my last post.

pH: 6.5

KH: 0

GH: 8-9dGH

Ammonia: 0.5ppm

Nitrite: 0ppm

Nitrate: 5ppm

I added 30 more drops of Dr Tim's.  

I'm beginning to think this bottle is worthless. Or my substrate is absorbing ammonia along with the carbonate. 

This time I won't bother testing until 24 hours later.  

Edited August 27, 2021 by Gideyon

[Scott P.]

Never used Dr Tims, I use Fritz ammonia. Put in according to directions and instant 2.0 PPM ammonia.

I have no idea if the substrate is absorbing it though.

Good luck

[Gideyon]

After the 30 drops, no change in ammonia. 

 

I added about 2.5 tsp of baking soda.  After a little bit, pH is 7.5, KH is about 15dKH.  I lost count somewhere.   Which is pretty high. Although the test strip test showed around 140ppm.

I'll test again tomorrow.  If the pH is the same, I'll add even more ammonia.  If it dropped, more baking soda. 

Edited August 28, 2021 by Gideyon

[Gideyon]

PH stayed the same. Kh dropped but still higher than normal.  That 0.5ppm ammonia is now less than 0.25. 

I'm trying the drops again but back to just 10 drops of ammonia. 

[Gideyon]

I was impatient. I tested again. Kh dropped a little more, but the ammonia went to 1ppm.  I added 10 more drops and now it's 2ppm.

So finally I'm starting the cycling process.   Unless there's a ph or KH crash, I'll update when I start to see nitrites. 

[Gideyon]

Since the last update, my kh went down to 2dKH, so I added 0.25 tsp baking soda, but it only raised it 1 degree.   Then I added 3/4 more.  It went up to 8dKH. 

Today I checked my KH and it was 4dKH. Which was surprising because I was expecting 6 or 7. 

I checked my other parameters... 0.25 ppm nitrites. 

This is my first fishless cycle and not using any bottled bacteria. So when I finally saw the nitrites reading, it was a moment of joy. 

It's the small victories.... 

This also gives me some anecdotal evidence that carbonate gets consumed during nitrification. My substrate was absorbing it about 1 degree a day.  No nitrites yesterday.  Nitrites today and the KH dropped by 3 to 4 degrees. 

[Gideyon]

Nitrates are 80ppm +

Ammonia below 1ppm (maybe 0.25)

Nitrites are hard to tell but it's a very dark purple. 

So it's looking like the nitrifying bacteria are present.  Just not enough yet. 

It could be many weeks before any denitrifying bacteria forms. 

Could a huge accumulation of nitrates have any affect on the bacteria in the tank, or it's safe to let to rise?   Like too much ammonia can prevent the cycle from even starting.   I'm thinking there's no more need to check for nitrates unless I need to top off water, and only check after a month.    But I'm wondering if I should do a water change before adding more ammonia. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Gideyon

[Gideyon]

Ammonia is 0ppm.  Nitrite has lowered but still high.  I stopped testing nitrates for now. KH is 3.   I'll be adding sodium bicarbonate when it hits 2.  

When nitrite is 0, I'll add another 20 drops of ammonia. 

[Gideyon]

Finally reached 0ppm nitrite.   

Nitrate is 160+ ppm

I added another 20 drops of ammonia and will check again tomorrow. 

[Gideyon]

I did a "soft reset" and did a 90% water change. The brown water was driving me crazy, and I needed to clean the glass too. 

The cause may prevent me from going further if it happens again. I think the substrate is deteriorating. The fine particles were clouding the tank, and even dying the water.  

Or if it doesn't happen again, maybe it was fine particles that didn't get rinsed out that came up through the lift tube. That's my hope. 

But if it ends up failing, I'll try it again but with a gravel substrate with just a small layer of the clay above the UGF plate. 

Edited October 2, 2021 by Gideyon

[Gideyon]

It's only been a week since nitrification was complete, and doing a 90% water change. 

Since the water change, I added more than 4ppm ammonia.  I'd even guess more than 5ppm.   My goal was 2ppm with 20 drops of Dr Tim's, but I squeezed a little too hard for the last few drops that it turned into a stream of ammonia.   It happened again 2 days later, but this time on purpose. 

I forgot to get a baseline of my nitrates then.   So I only did it tonight. I don't plan on adding ammonia again for another week (total 2 weeks).   

80ppm is my best guess.  Bright red on the master test kit, roughly 80ppm on the API strips.

In a week, I'll see if denitrification has taken place.  If not, I'll add 2ppm ammonia, and leave it for a week again. 

 

[Gideyon]

My nitrates haven't budged.  I had unexpected travel for over a week so I didn't add ammonia when I wanted.   I added 10 drops today.  

But I think I may do a water change to get the water clear again next week or the week after.  That'll reset the nitrates obviously. 

I've been having a suspicion that there's too much water going through the uplift tube.  This is because of the amount of fine substrate particles I've been seeing in the tank.   Too much water flow means too much oxygen, and anaerobic conditions won't happen. 

So today I decreased the air to the smallest it can go.  I was worried about burning out the pump by doing that, so what I did was put a T, and on one end it goes to the air stone for the UGF, and the other goes to the regulator thingymajig. That way all the air is going somewhere other than back into the pump. 

[Hobbit]

I admire you for sticking with this experiment! It’s really cool!

[Gideyon]

I had to do a reset of this experiment.  The substrate was bugging me because of the dust that gets all over the glass. 

As I emptied out the water and scooped out the clay, I noticed little bits of slushy clay.  It could be dust that didn't wash off when I rinsed.  But it was encouraging that it wasn't that much, and not too much leaked to the bottom. 

I put back about a little less than an inch of clay.  Added more laterite.  Then put gravel on top.  I thought I had more but it didn't go as high as I wanted (3" was the minimum). 

However, I'm hopeful I'll still be able to create anoxic conditions because when I had less than this in my first tank, I did on occasion experience that rotten smell when digging up the substrate during a gravel vac.  From what I learned from Bentley Pascoe, that was from anaerobic conditions.  So with the plenum, it should become anoxic.

That's the hope at least.   Or maybe I have another bag of gravel in here somewhere.... 

I haven't added water yet, so I have my ceramics and stones in old water. I'm thinking about not using my HOB and run a sponge along with the UGF.  I don't want to consume too much power when I don't have fish inside. 

I was considering trying a biocenesis bag in the HOB, but I don't think the water flow would be enough. 

Looking ahead, I foresee me adding fish before I see evidence of nitrates going down.  I'm understanding that it'll take more months than originally thought.  And since I'm starting from almost scratch again, it'll take a while longer. 

 

 

 

[Gideyon]

When I said I did a reset, I should've mentioned it wasn't a complete reset. I didn't move the filter plates, and the few ceramics under the plates remained.  

I also had the tank "off" for a week or so with no water movement whatsoever before I did all that. 

Well.... 

Now I'm starting to see what appears to be a drop in nitrates. 

Last I checked on Wednesday, the test was clearly red. I'm terrible with colors but it was likely 80ppm or more. But not 160.

 

I checked today and it looks more like a red-orange.  Less than 80, above 40ppm. I did a second test with a strip. Hard to tell with shades of pink, but it looks closer to 40,but still between 40 and 80ppm

(Note: I suspected the drop even with that 80ppm test because it should've been more.  On the Monday before, I had 80ppm but still had very high nitrites.  so Wednesday, with 0 nitrites, I'd expect nitrates to be higher than 80)

I won't add ammonia for another week.  If I see another drop, then it confirms what I see happening. If I don't, then I need to get my eyes checked.  

Edited December 14, 2021 by Gideyon

[Gideyon]

I think denitrification is happening.  I'm not excited and certain because I'm not good with colors.

But it seems more orange than before. I should have taken a picture last week. The strip shows 40ppm, and the tube looks less than 40ppm on the chart. 

This was clearly 80+ two weeks ago. 

 

 

 

So I'll wait another week.   If it looks the same, I'll add more ammonia.  If it looks less, I'll let it ride another week. 

[gjcarew]

Nice experiment. Good to see you trying it without plants in your tank. I've seen some other experiments on this subject online if you want to check them out.

I personally find Novak frustrating because he never offers any proof of what he's saying. The science is mumbo-jumbo, and when you ask him to explain why he thinks this type of denitrification should work he cites a website he wrote, and concepts that are apparently unknown to the rest of the scientific community. He demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of basic scientific concepts, and has never said where his PhD is from... I would be VERY surprised if he is even a doctor. Seems to me like a kooky guy with a mostly harmless grift. 

[Gideyon]

I don't see much change.  So I'll top off the tank and add more ammonia. And after the initial 20 drops and cycle, I may do 5 drops a week.  

It's a mystery how the nitrates even went down.  

One possibility is that I actually did achieve denitrification.  But when the indoor temps went sub-60 for a few days (we were out of town), maybe that ruined something. 

Or while I was gone, someone broke into the house and did a water change. 

[Gideyon]

After I noticed the Nitrate drop stopping, I had noticed on the side of the tank a strange phenomenon. I started another thread to figure out what could have happened.  Long story short, the consensus is that an air bubble some how got trapped under the UGF plate, and exploded out this end (maybe the least resistance).

Could it be possible that this air was nitrogen that somehow got trapped?  

Either way, if denitrification was taking place (no other reason for the Nitrate drop), this explosion likely ruined it by allowing oxygen to flow in.  

So what now....

I really didn't want to tear down even partially the tank to fix it.  So I just used a knife and shoved down the fabric and cover the exposed plate.  The clay that was there is gone. Not sure where it went. 

I turned my HOB back on because there was a suggestion that could help prevent trapped air. 

I already completed one nitrification cycle since the last post. Added 10 drops of ammonia today. 

 

This is what the tank looks like now. 

 

Turning off the sponge later. Sorry for the spots. 

I don't know if I have it in me to wait more months if I lost everything.  

I'll think about it next year.

Happy new year, everyone. 

[Gideyon]

Topped off the water.   20 drops ammonia, followed by 10 drops a week later. 

My new baseline.

 

It's more red than the picture shows.  80+ppm.