If dewormer has worked, how long til fish fill out?

[PineSong]

I've currently got a batch of fish in QT, having finished the first round of Paracleanse and waiting 2  weeks to repeat.

Three mollies were thin when I got them, but otherwise looked healthy--active, scales and fins looked very good. Now that they've had dewormer, how soon should they start to plump up?

It has been four days since they had the second dose, they've been fed 2x per day, and they don't look a bit less thin.

 

 

[Odd Duck]

@PineSong You might consider using levamisole if the Paracleanse hasn’t made a difference.  Levamisole works against different types of internal parasites.  It is light sensitive and can be inactivated by organic debris, so a large water change, vacuuming out as much debris as possible before treatment is recommended.  Black out the tank during treatment (or treat overnight).  Then do another vacuuming water change afterwards to remove any worms and eggs produced.  Ideally, repeat this weekly for 3-4 treatments.

If this combination of levamisole and Paracleanse doesn’t work, then it isn’t likely to be internal parasites.  I’ve got a couple CPD’s that are still in quarantine and have not responded to treatment.  It’s not looking good for them.  😔 

[HH Morant]

If they are eating you might consider medicating food rather than dosing the water column. I agree levamisole is a good de-wormer, even better if the fish swallows it.

There are different methods of medicating the food:

1. Using Seachem Metroplex and Seachem Focus, with Garlic-Guard as a flavor enhancer. There are videos on YouTube showing how to do this. The Focus is said to "bind" the medication to the food. I have used this method with Metroplex, metronidazole powder, and also with Paracleanse, API General Cure, praziquantel, and levamisole.

2. Using the medication and Garlic-Guard or water without Focus. There are Jack Wattley Discus videos on YouTube showing how they do this with "100%" metronidazole powder that they sell. The guy who does the video for Jack Wattley Discus does not think Focus is needed. He says ingesting the medication is 10 times stronger than putting it into the water. I have also used this method (with Garlic-Guard, not water) of making medicated food with all of the medications mentioned above. 

3. On the aquariumscience.org website under the title "Making Medicated Food"  a method of making medicated food is described using hot water and gelatin. I have not used this method yet, but I intend to try it. The author of this website does not believe that dosing the water column has any effect on internal parasites (see his article "Fish Don't Drink" on the website), so he says the only effective way to kill internal parasites is with medicated food.

Good luck, and I hope your fish make it.

[PineSong]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:08 AM, Odd Duck said:

@PineSong You might consider using levamisole if the Paracleanse hasn’t made a difference.  Levamisole works against different types of internal parasites.

How long would you wait before concluding that the Paracleanse has not worked as-is? If the fish have not gained any mass in 4 days, is it too soon to say so, or would you expect them to have gained some by now?

[Odd Duck]

On 8/2/2021 at 12:59 PM, PineSong said:

How long would you wait before concluding that the Paracleanse has not worked as-is? If the fish have not gained any mass in 4 days, is it too soon to say so, or would you expect them to have gained some by now?

Personally, if I was choosing only one dewormer, it would be levamisole, just FYI.  You’re not likely causing problems by doing Paracleanse, but it’s only going to get tapeworms (less likely) and flukes (usually visible).

As far as when they plump up, it typically takes around a week, sometimes a little less if they’re going to respond to any given dewormer.

[PineSong]

Thanks. Naturally I am going to be away for two days just as this is happening. I will take action if they aren't any thicker by the time I get back. 

[PineSong]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:31 AM, HH Morant said:

If they are eating you might consider medicating food rather than dosing the water column. I agree levamisole is a good de-wormer, even better if the fish swallows it.

....The author of this website does not believe that dosing the water column has any effect on internal parasites (see his article "Fish Don't Drink" on the website), so he says the only effective way to kill internal parasites is with medicated food.

Good luck, and I hope your fish make it.

Thank you. I've read the above article now that I'm home from work and ordered the levamisole, so I will be prepared to make the food when I get back. I appreciate the info!

[PineSong]

Just a follow up. I treated them with the levamisole and they are definitely not any skinnier, though they aren't necessarily chubbier either. They are active and have good appetites. If nothing else had cropped up, I would consider them fine.

But...I feel like I am in a game of whack-a-mole. I've been treating with Ich-X for a week + with improvement, but not eradication of specks on tail fins. I'm frustrated that these guys have been here for 3.5 weeks and are not free to go in the main tank yet. Argh.

 

[Odd Duck]

How many times have you treated with the levamisole so far?  How long since your most recent treatment?

[PineSong]

On 8/17/2021 at 12:32 AM, Odd Duck said:

How many times have you treated with the levamisole so far?  How long since your most recent treatment?

They've had two doses, a week apart. The second dose was August 10.

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by PineSong

[PineSong]

On 8/17/2021 at 12:38 AM, PineSong said:

They've had two doses, a week apart. The second dose was August 10.

 

Actually, I think they've only had one dose! I just looked at my notes. August 10th is when they had it.

 

[Odd Duck]

If they aren’t filling out by the time they are due for a dose 3, they may have fish TB or something not parasite related.  Are they eating OK?  Have you been feeding nice meaty foods?  Along with some veggies, of course, since they’re mollies.

Keep us posted in another few days.

[Odd Duck]

On 8/16/2021 at 11:40 PM, PineSong said:

Actually, I think they've only had one dose! I just looked at my notes. August 10th is when they had it.

 

Oh, well then, patience grasshopper!

[PineSong]

On 8/17/2021 at 12:42 AM, Odd Duck said:

Oh, well then, patience grasshopper!

Lol, right. That's the hard part. 

They are eating everything in sight--they have been active and are super beggars as soon as they see me. They have krill flakes, algae wafers, bug bites. I have frozen blood worms but have not fed them. They have had Hikari freeze dried worms with spirulina.

Two of them (and one of the chubby platies) have glassy-looking specks on tail fins. The specks have not developed into white pinhead balls as seen in so many photos of ich, and I don't see any on their bodies. No flashing or itching behaviors. No sitting still, no hanging out at the top of the tank.

I've been using Ich X daily and have gotten them  speck-free twice, but they came back the next day. Today I turned the heat up to 78. Tomorrow I am blacking out the tank. 

Since the specks have not gotten bigger, just increased in number, I'm not even sure they are ich. I haven't been able to get a good photo but will try again tomorrow.

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by PineSong
included info on foods

[Odd Duck]

On 8/16/2021 at 11:49 PM, PineSong said:

Lol, right. That's the hard part. 

They are eating everything in sight--they have been active and are super beggars as soon as they see me.

Two of them (and one of the chubby platies) have glassy-looking specks on tail fins. The specks have not developed into white pinhead balls as seen in so many photos of ich, and I don't see any on their bodies. No flashing or itching behaviors. No sitting still, no hanging out at the top of the tank.

I've been using Ich X daily and have gotten them  speck-free twice, but they came back the next day. Today I turned the heat up to 78. Tomorrow I am blacking out the tank. 

Since the specks have not gotten bigger, just increased in number, I'm not even sure they are ich. I haven't been able to get a good photo but will try again tomorrow.

 

Why would you black out the tank for ich?  Slowly bump the temp to 82 for at least 10 days (make sure you have enough aeration, warmer water will cause lower dissolved oxygen levels).  A higher temp pushes Ich to go through its life cycle faster to get it at the free swimming stage and your Ich-X treatment will be more effective since it *only* works on the free swimming stage.  But I’m not convinced it’s ich based on your description.  Try again for the photos.

[Guppysnail]

On 8/17/2021 at 12:49 AM, PineSong said:

have glassy-looking specks

I have seen this in guppies.  They eventually deteriorate the fin I think it’s a form of fin rot. Maracyn cleans it up for me.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Guppysnail

[PineSong]

Thank you both for your help.

Taking pics didn't produce results, as I don't have a newer phone and they were in non stop motion. I have to go to work now but when I get home I will stick the two fish with specks this AM in the breeder box so they can't dart around and try again.

The pics just looked like this:   

[PineSong]

Okay, trying again.  Here are the best pics I could get of his tail. The spots showed up 9-10 days ago and have never been more pronounced than this, or whiter,  and neither he nor the other fish affected seem to have any spots on their bodies, just dorsal and tail fins. There has never been a day when all the fish had specks--at most 2 mollies and one platy. There have never been a ton of specks. There have been two days (not in a row) with no specks. No specks on white clouds that I could ever see.

Tank data:

10 gallon, bare bottom QT with floater plants 3 mollies, 3 platies, 5 white clouds

temp 82 (turned it up gradually from room temp yesterday)

GH 60    KH 80     pH 7.0

Nitrites 1 (first time above zero in this tank, did 25% water change when read)

Nitrates 10

There has never been a day when all the fish had specks--at most 2 mollies and one platy. There have never been a ton of specks. There have been two days (not in a row) with no specks.

I am also including an overhead pic that shows how slender he and the other mollies are. I appreciate all feedback and suggestions.

 

[Odd Duck]

@PineSong I can make out the tiny specks you’re seeing, but I’m having a hard time convincing myself they are actually Ich.  They look too small.  I don’t know what they are, maybe someone else will have an idea.  I would probably just continue with your internal parasites treatment plan and see what happens.

[PineSong]

Thank you, and I am sorry I can't get better photos but I agree it doesn't look like ich as I usually see it in photos or have seen it in the past on goldfish. This morning is another day of no visible specks on anyone in the tank, but I fully expect to see them again this afternoon or tomorrow.

I was reading the Co-op article about ich yesterday and these two lines stood out to me: 

"We tend to notice ich on the fins first since there’s less slime coat in those areas and it’s easier for the parasite to target." which would explain why I keep seeing it on fins and not bodies, but not why it hasn't progressed.

And " If you see five spots today and five spots tomorrow with no increase, this may be stress ich instead and will not necessarily respond to the same treatment regimen mentioned below." which would explain why it hasn't moved to all the other fish or increased notably on the fish it has been seen on.

Additionally, we have no itching/scraping or darting behaviors.

I can't imagine what is stressing the fish to cause 'stress ich'--being moved from shop to QT tank doesn't seem like it would cause 3.5 weeks of stress and behavior-wise they seem fine. So maybe it's not 'stress ich' either. 

My current plan is to give the second dose of Expel-P for the slenderness of the mollies, keep the tank at 82 in case it is ich/anything else helped by temp increase, and see what happens.

[Odd Duck]

@PineSong That sounds like an excellent plan.

[PineSong]

Update: Day 2 of no specks and they've had their Expel-P. Interestingly, since the heat has been cranked up to 82, my blue platies are SO much darker and sparklier. Their color has really intensified. They look so much better I'm going to leave them at 77 or 78.

I know my Innes book says that being chilled is the primary stress factor in ich. Maybe he means the kind of ich that Cory's article calls 'stress ich' and the heat has cured it.

[Odd Duck]

In the old days, we used to just raise the temp to 82 degrees for 10 days and we were done.  What I read these days says that isn’t enough.  I’m not sure of the difference from then to now, but I just found a few spots on a few species of fish in my 100 G yesterday, so the temp is up, and I’ve added salt.  I’d rather replace plants than fish.

Nobody has been flashing at all, everybody is eating and active.  I did a half dose yesterday (only had enough salt for a half dose), added more today, and nobody seems bothered by the salt.

The last fish that came out of QT were the new blue-eyed lemon BN and they didn’t have spots then and still don’t have spots.  They were added almost 3 weeks ago, were in QT for almost 3 weeks.  The previous group had no spots after a full month (a couple just didn’t look quite as healthy, but they were clearly geriatrics bought from a guy shutting down his FW tank) and it was almost a month since they were added.

There are less spots visible on everybody today.  Parameters are good.  I’ll be increasing my QT to a full month hereafter.  🤷🏻‍♀️

[PineSong]

I hope your fish recover promptly. It's so frustrating when things come from out of nowhere.

[PineSong]

Just an update: no specks have been seen since the temp was turned up in the tank. The mollies have not appeared to gain weight despite now having had 2 rounds of Paracleanse and then 2 of Expel-P. 

I was about to conclude that they are just slender athletic fish instead of couch potato fish and call them done with QT andthought I'd add them to my community tank next weekend, but then one of them started looking not good--no specks but definitely not looking normal and happy so it's back to watching and waiting.