Do you to check cave spawners for fry? Should I ?

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

I realize that I may be pathfinding a bit on the puffer breeding of the Pao puffers but we have a few well versed in the habits of cave spawners of other species cichlids especially seem applicable. 

The Mekong Puffer adult pair have been in his former bachelor pad and in breeding coloration for 4 days now. Its killing me to not check but also do not want to frighten either and risk them eating fry. Talk me down .... its the right thing to just wait for tiny puffer fry to emerge vs letting my curiosity kill the puffer fry and burn the spawning site ? This is this morning the male returning from a patrol of the area and displaying to the female inside along with a few photos of the female in her spawning colors

[lefty o]

i would maybe shine a light in there, but i myself would not move the pot to look inside it. it probably does no harm to lift the pot, but if you are actively trying to breed them, why disturb the love shack.

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

@lefty o I have tried to peek a bit but they have definitely outsmarted the light option. Whatever is in there is against that left wall. The male's puffer brain is fairly fascinating to see in action when he gives me that look of "we have this covered" from inside the shack. I am basing the presence of eggs or fry purely on the behaviors of both compared to their established standards and their changes to spawning colors.

Edited July 27, 2021 by mountaintoppufferkeeper

[DSH OUTDOORS]

This would be your second spawn in a couple of weeks correct?  If so, you obviously have their tank and conditions how they like.  I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to experiment since they will likely breed again.

I would leave them be this time since you have the start date of breeding behavior documented.  Note the first time you see free swimming fry and take a best guess to when the eggs were laid.

Next time pull a day or two after you think they were laid and put the entire pot in a breeder box or another tank.  

Take a look at the two strategies and see what produced the most fry that survive to juvenile stage.

You are pretty much writing the book on this one.  Document everything, take good notes and corner the market!!!!

Best of luck in whatever you decide to do, congrats on the success so far.

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

You could recreate the pot they are spawning in and replace one for the other when you plan to take the eggs/spawn/fry. Some fish don’t know the difference but some cichlids I’ve had in the past do know the difference. That can be less distressing to them then just taking it. @mountaintoppufferkeeper I sure live following this journal. Thanks for sharing!

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

On 7/27/2021 at 9:22 AM, DSH OUTDOORS said:

This would be your second spawn in a couple of weeks correct?  If so, you obviously have their tank and conditions how they like.  I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to experiment since they will likely breed again.

I would leave them be this time since you have the start date of breeding behavior documented.  Note the first time you see free swimming fry and take a best guess to when the eggs were laid.

Next time pull a day or two after you think they were laid and put the entire pot in a breeder box or another tank.  

Take a look at the two strategies and see what produced the most fry that survive to juvenile stage.

You are pretty much writing the book on this one.  Document everything, take good notes and corner the market!!!!

Best of luck in whatever you decide to do, congrats on the success so far.

Thank you. Yes that first batch of now 3 thriving fry are at 17 days old this morning. I'm still working on if the adults are a bonded pair or if the females are rotating out; 2 weeks seems very fast for a 2nd batch from the same female. At least the adults are all eating for the whole time with the male and the female in the cave are swapping out for food and security operations. I am nearly positive he has 5 females with him in the 75 gallon so I lucked out there with getting a male in the initial wild caught stock.  I have been taking daily notes, videos, and photos of everything for reference.

LOL. Maybe P.palustris will be the first step to the unexpected but somewhat attempted mountain top puffer hobby empire and not the hairy puffers I started the puffer breeding path with. I suppose with more fry each to start more fry will make it; I am looking forward documenting how I improve my process if I am lucky enough to get more batches.

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

@Beardedbillygoat1975 I do have some spares of my high end 59 cent custom caves and the probably 50 cent custom cut slate tile floor so that is definitely an option 🙂 . The puffers are pretty good problem solvers and crazy observant I would bet they would know if both were out of the cave and I swapped it out. The puffers are the only ones I have kept so far who, in my opinion, recognize me as their person, know when I'm going to the food freezer, and how to let me know they wouldn't mind some food. The only species that are basically aquatic dogs who are excited to see me, happy to be up top wagging their tails if I am away for too long, and the only ones in the fishroom who both enjoy the attention and also pay attention to what I am doing away from their tank.   

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

@mountaintoppufferkeepersome cichlids are similar, my festivum follows me around as I do tank maintenance. I’ve seen him watching me plant them rip the plant out like it’s a game, he will take food from tweezer and is always watching as actions going on around him. He likes to antagonize our puppy swimming along the bottom and she will chase- I find paw and nose prints occasionally. 

[eatyourpeas]

On 7/27/2021 at 8:13 AM, mountaintoppufferkeeper said:

Whatever is in there is against that left wall.

Can you try a dental mirror attached to a long stick?

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

On 7/27/2021 at 12:46 PM, eatyourpeas said:

Can you try a dental mirror attached to a long stick?

I may try that one next spawn. After further review of the wyze cam being used for puffer watch.... the female left the cave at 558 local time this morning and the male dropped is coloration to normal at 731 am. I assume the fry left the cave between those two times. The male was looking for krill to be served just now and happily got himself a belly full with the 5 adult females; no fry noted on the check just now in the cave so we have 2 weeks to prep for the next batch and I would think 4 days of watching the tank for fry to appear from this round. I will shoot for pulling at 48 hours after cave guarding is observed next time to try and catch them in a more condensed fry group. 

[Griznatch]

Very cool,  love the updates!
 

My wife teases me all the time when I mention the fish are showing spawning behavior. She always ask why I'm trying to have baby fish. I don't necessarily every time. I just know that if they spawn, then they are happy and I have the tank where it's supposed to be.

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

@Griznatch  I share that fish keeping philosophy as well. Getting spawning out of the groups of different fish is more of my indicator of happy healthy systems than anything else. Though when the palustris fry were exercising their tiny puffer muscles for the first time the other day that was probably the coolest thing I have ever watched in a fish tank. That even beats me possibly capturing one of if not the first documented spawnings of palustris and maybe the first 17 days of captive born fry here on the forum.

I do enjoy participating in BAP for the Colorado Aquarium Society, the American Livebearers Association, and hopefully a COOP online BAP eventually. Beyond the knowledge obtained in keeping the species that results in successful fry and successive generations of fry it would be fun to have some "fish flair" to hang by the tanks in the fishroom as I progress into in depth knowledge of more species and their behaviors. 

That said .... I will be next level pumped when my Hairy puffer bonded pair produce their first fry. At this point I think we can all agree they are clearly messing with me. 🙂  I am very interested to document the differences between breeding and raising the two pao species I currently keep (P. baileyi and P.palustris) through successive the generations if and when I get them to that point. I am one day closer to either finding the right formula for baileyi fry or not breaking that code and just enjoying my pair for years to come. Fun tank to learn from them each day regardless of the fry outcome.