Ich?

[FredF]

Hi,

I am requested some help from someone who has a more experience with these types of diseases.  The water parameters are as follows:

• pH         6.8 - fluval stratum is substrate so pH is lower
• Nitrates  Less than 10 per test strip
• Hardness  - higher than 150, lower than 300 on the Coop test strips
• Nitrite  - 0
• Ammonia -0
• KH/Buffer - low 40 (again due to fluval stratum)
• Water Temperature - 78

This seems to be only affecting my 4 or 5 cardinal tetras.  I thought initially it was ick, but none of the fish have a ton of spots.  The pics you see below are typical, there are one or two spots on them, and its only a few fish.  All fish appear to be acting normal (including the infected ones), and eating well.  The tank is a month old.  I think maybe I might have added too many fish at once on my last round of finalizing the tank, 12 cardinals 6 rummynose and 2 angels (quarter size body) and a red bristlenose pleco.  That said, the tank is planted fairly heavy, and I have not had any ammonia readings on any tests I have run, which include test strips and the seachem alert.  I am not injecting C02. 

I was out of the hobby for 10 years but now am hooked again, so I'm not new, but not necessarily up to date either.

Right now I am treating the tank with Tetra Life Guard (which on a 75 is not cheap), because I really wasn't certain what this is.  However, after day 4, nothing appears to have changed on these fish.  That said all inhabitants seem fine as well.  I'm at a bit of a loss what to do.  

Thanks in advance for any advice

 

[lefty o]

just from the pictures, i cant see ich.

[TioTeo]

I am admittedly new to the hobby, I started in February, but I jumped off the deep end and have four tanks now, and I am addicted to youtube videos. I also have cardinal tetras and I have had to treat for ich in two separate tanks. But this is what it always looks like in my cardinal tetras. If you catch it early it doesn’t seem to grow too much or get too big, rather just pin points, but it does start to multiply into many more spots over the sick fish and spread to others. 

I have found great success in treating both with super ick cure (API) as well as Ich-X (preferred). After only about a week the spots are gone, and the fish never really seem to be bothered but each tank has been successful at keeping it at bay after treatment.

 

 

Note these statements are made Irregardless of the possible problems I just observed in a new rice fish getting it when introduced to my quarantine tank, as I think I combined incompatible chemicals, and there are so  many other things that seemed to have gone wrong. But the other fish in that tank don’t seem to have ich and are doing fine. 

 

[Colu]

It could be epistylis recommend treatment is kanaplex in food you will need seachem focus to act as a binding agent   mix with your food

[TioTeo]

@Colu We have seen a lot of posting recently about white spot/growth diseases, and while I am a novice I can’t say the diagnosis are always straightforward to me and my observations. 
 

Do you happen to know if any good articles, threads, YouTube videos, etc. or have a clear summary of how you might distinguish between these diseases (e.g. Ich, epistylis, lymphocystis, etc.)? Obviously, this is not a one size fits all sort of diagnosis, and things can be nuanced, but I think some sort of guidance on how to identify these at the macroscopic level would be helpful.

 

Thank you, 

[FredF]

Thanks.  If I don't see this clear up shortly I will give this a try.  I read a few articles, and it is clear this may nearly be as common as Ich.

On 7/14/2021 at 6:29 AM, Colu said:

It could be epistylis recommend treatment is kanaplex in food you will need seachem focus to act as a binding agent   mix with your food

 

[FredF]

On 7/14/2021 at 12:45 AM, TioTeo said:

I am admittedly new to the hobby, I started in February, but I jumped off the deep end and have four tanks now, and I am addicted to youtube videos. I also have cardinal tetras and I have had to treat for ich in two separate tanks. But this is what it always looks like in my cardinal tetras. If you catch it early it doesn’t seem to grow too much or get too big, rather just pin points, but it does start to multiply into many more spots over the sick fish and spread to others. 

I have found great success in treating both with super ick cure (API) as well as Ich-X (preferred). After only about a week the spots are gone, and the fish never really seem to be bothered but each tank has been successful at keeping it at bay after treatment.

 

 

Note these statements are made Irregardless of the possible problems I just observed in a new rice fish getting it when introduced to my quarantine tank, as I think I combined incompatible chemicals, and there are so  many other things that seemed to have gone wrong. But the other fish in that tank don’t seem to have ich and are doing fine. 

 

Thanks, I purchased some Ich-X, after this and viewing YouTube video by Cory saying that's what he used.  A little nervous about this staining stuff, but seems to be universally accepted as one of the best treatments.

[FredF]

Hi,

A follow up question.

After 5 days of Lifeguard, there is still some white spots on some fish, some of the fish have lost their spots and I noticed some new ones on my Rummynose tetras (was previously only on the cardinal tetras I had).  I did a 70-80% water change today.  Should I start a regimen of Ich-X at this point and see where that goes?

So far I have not lost any fish (fingers crossed).

Thanks,

[Colu]

I would start treating with ich x

[FredF]

I had a vacation planned, and I thought my Ich was gone.   When I came back, the ich was back on a lot of my cardinal tetras, some rummynose tetras, and some of the other fish appeared more sluggish.  

I figured I was at square one.  This time I did the following:

1. Raised the temp to 83 degrees

2. Added an airstone running 24/7

3. Restarted Ich-X 7/21, and have been changing the 50-70% of the water daily and treating with ich-x daily

I lost one juvenile angelfish after restarting the Ich-X, that is when I figured I need to add the airstone for more surface agitation in the warmer water.

Its been 10 days, and I still have fish with Ich.  From what I have been reading most people are beyond fish showing symptoms treating with Ich-X once the ten day mark is reached.  I still have several fish with ICH, although there do seem to be fewer that have it.  Also, I am not running any carbon or any type of other chemical media in my Fluval 407.  I watched a video from Prime Time Aquatics that mentioned  that brighter light could affect the medication in ICH-X, so I reduced my Fluval 3.0 planted to 50%, from 85%  just recently.

Does anyone have any thoughts why this is taking so long, could it have been the lighting or something else, or is this fairly typical.

Thanks,

Edited August 1, 2021 by FredF

[Fonske]

I had one case of long-lasting ich (or something that looked exactly like ich to a naked eye), more than 3 weeks long. It resisted the medicine I successfully used before (not Ich-X or other meds mentioned in this thread). In the earlier treatments, ich was gone after 3 to 5 days. But in the long-lasting case, the number of white spots decreased a bit and then increased again and there seemed to be no end to it. Eventually, I had to move all the fish into a hospital tank and treat with salt, which got rid of ich, although some fishes didn't make it. 

[Colu]

Something times using an ick medication with a different active ingredient does the trick

[FredF]

I am uploading a few pics of the some of the infected fish.  I believe this is Ich, but I recognize my photography skills are not the greatest.

I tried catching the infected fish, but with a fully planted tank with wood, plants, rocks, its virtually impossible without tearing the tank down itself.

I do have Ick Guard from tetra which contains Victoria Green and acriflavine.   I do want to make sure I am using something that is as safe as ICH-X if possible.  If anyone has any suggestions, I am open to them.  I have Corys, Oto's and a BNP, so I don't want to add something that will kill fish. Although if it killed Staghorn algae, as you can see that would be a bonus LOL.

Thanks,

  

[Colu]

 acriflavin can harm plants I would treat with API super ick cure 

[Gator]

It does look like your Neon has Ich. I used to advocate raising your water temp to between 81 and 83 degrees to kill Ich and keep it from returning, but then I read an article from the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources that states that we should keep our Tropical fish at 85 degrees to prevent a wide range of diseases that affect fish that are kept at cooler temps. Goldfish aren't Tropical fish and shouldn't be affected by those diseases unless they are kept in temps above their comfort zone.

Your tank looks fantastic and no, Ich Guard will not kill your fish.

I wish you the best.

Sincerely

Gator

[FredF]

Thanks, appreciate the kind words.  I raised my temp to about 84 degrees now.  I hesitate keeping it that high for the long term because I think the many of the plants may suffer at that higher temperature, they have definitely taken a downturn while treating, and the staghorn algae seems to have increased, but I do not want to treat for that with a Easy Carbon or Excel until I get the Ich under control.  I want to keep the chemicals at a minimum and I will deal with the algae when this is done.

I was previously keeping the tank at 78.  Everything seemed to handle that just fine until the ICH.  Maybe I can do 81 or 82 after this, but I feel my platys in the tank aren't super fond are the warmer temps.  Everything else Angels, Corys, Rummynose, Cardinals, and Otos seem to be fine.  I also think if I'm at a higher temp the airstone might need to become a permanent addition to the aquarium.  Not super fond of the aesthetic, but in this tank I am prioritizing fish over plants

I'm treating with super ich cure, as Colu recommended.  I don't notice too much difference in the spots, but the Cardinals are acting a lot more lively, so I am hoping that is a good sign.

[Gator]

Don't be afraid of 84 or 85 degrees in your tank, that temp range is not going to harm your fish (unless you try to keep Goldfish at this temp) or your plants. Your fish, including your Platies, and plants all come from water that is in this temp range.

My main tank has been at about 84.9 for years and the temp has not hurt any of my plants, they grow so fast that I have to trim them once a month.

I can't remember the last time I had to medicate this tank for anything so now, after reading an article on Columanaris from the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, all of my tanks will slowly be raised to about 85 degrees to prevent all diseases.

Do you add any supplements to your water? The only supplement I use is Flourish Iron because aquatic plants really need iron, and I've seen my plants pearling several times over the years. Pearling is really cool.

Do you have your lights on a timer and if so, what is your timer schedule? My timers are all set to come on at 8AM, go off at 11:30AM, come back on at 4:30PM, and go off for the night at 8PM.  This is pretty much what our fish and plants would experience in a rain forest, the day starts sunny, then it's cloudy, then it's sunny again, then it's dark for the night, and the cycle starts all over again at 8AM the next morning. I have very little algae.

We must remember that our aquatic plants take in CO2 during the day and give off oxygen at night, just as our terrestrial plants do. 

What type of lighting do you have? I bought my first programable LED light about 10 years ago and I'll never go back to full spectrum fluorescent lights. My fish and plants stand out so much better under LED lights.

My electric bill went down so I changed all of the light bulbs in my house to LED bulbs and I don't have to buy new fluorescent bulbs for my aquarium every year. It's a win-win-win for my wallet, my fish, and the environment.

Do you have Driftwood, Mopani wood, or Cholla wood in your tank? These would soften your water and lower the pH more in favor of your Angel's, Cory's, Tetra's, and Oto's, not so much in favor of your Platies. Platies, Mollies, Swordtails, and Guppies all prefer a pH range of about 7.6 and above. These fish can be acclimated to live and thrive in a saltwater tank.

Sailfin Mollies are native to Florida and can be found living in the brackish water where the Everglades meets the ocean, if it's an option for you, you may wish to set up a separate tank just for your Platies, but don't add Mollies, Swordtails, and Guppies to this tank, they can all interbreed with each other. 

If you get the right number of plants in relation to the number of fish you have, you'll never need an air stone unless you actually want one. Air stones may provide too much oxygen in the daytime disrupting our plants ability to take in enough CO2 to stay alive, so I don't use them.

I hope I've helped in some small way.

Sincerely

Gator 

 

 

 

[laritheloud]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:57 PM, FredF said:

Thanks, appreciate the kind words.  I raised my temp to about 84 degrees now.  I hesitate keeping it that high for the long term because I think the many of the plants may suffer at that higher temperature, they have definitely taken a downturn while treating, and the staghorn algae seems to have increased, but I do not want to treat for that with a Easy Carbon or Excel until I get the Ich under control.  I want to keep the chemicals at a minimum and I will deal with the algae when this is done.

I was previously keeping the tank at 78.  Everything seemed to handle that just fine until the ICH.  Maybe I can do 81 or 82 after this, but I feel my platys in the tank aren't super fond are the warmer temps.  Everything else Angels, Corys, Rummynose, Cardinals, and Otos seem to be fine.  I also think if I'm at a higher temp the airstone might need to become a permanent addition to the aquarium.  Not super fond of the aesthetic, but in this tank I am prioritizing fish over plants

I'm treating with super ich cure, as Colu recommended.  I don't notice too much difference in the spots, but the Cardinals are acting a lot more lively, so I am hoping that is a good sign.

78 degrees should be fine for these fish in the long run, especially corys, that tend to dislike elevated temps for the long term. Higher temps speed fish metabolism, and I am not totally sure that raising it that high year round is the best plan. BUT raising it while dealing with Ich is the right call.

Like discussed earlier in the thread, it could be opportunistic epistylis that attacked after your first round of ich was handled and your fish were still recovering. I am DEFINITELY not an expert, but maybe that's a possibility if the ich is unresponsive to meds now.

Good luck, and I really hope your treatment works.

[FredF]

So I want to thank everyone willing to help and advise.  The API made a noticable dent in the ICH on many of the fish.  However, I still have a bunch of cardinals that still seem to have it.  I lost two nickel size angels, who did not have any noticable signs for the disease outwardly, but their behavior did indicate they were not well.  They were listless at the surface.  Many of the fish especially my larger angelfish and platys show much improved behavior and less of the clamped fins with API Super ICH cure.  

I am attaching a couple pictures (it's really difficult to get sharp pics), to see what people think.  I can see some of the fish that had the ich (or whatever else it might be) look a little worse for the wear.  

A couple more questions.

1. I plan on doing a water change tonight of 50% or so. I assume this is fine.  I followed the API instructions to the letter.

2. Do I continue and restart the API treatment.  I have been treating this fish about a month now.  I'm concerned about continuing to medicate.  I also feel that if this was ICH 100% it would be beaten by now.

3. Could it possibly be something else, like epistylis that has been cited in the thread?   My aquarium is 7-8 weeks old at this point.  I have maracyn, but it seems some sort of medicated food is the best treatment as Colu said earlier.  "It could be epistylis recommend treatment is kanaplex in food you will need seachem focus to act as a binding agent mix with your food".

So I guess the bottom line is.  Should I continue with the ICH treatment, or go with the kanaplex.

I was doing some research online and read this.  The Pics are inconclusive to me, but the more I read the more likely this scenario appears to be.

"Epistylis occurs very frequently in newly set up aquariums with”dull” water and inadequate filtration, poor water circulation, over-feeding and poor aeration. Very often the best treatment for epistylis is to considerably reduce or even stop feeding for a while, add some very good filtration, add some wavemakers to circulate the water and add a ton of aeration. Proper  food levels (the volume of one eyeball once per day MAXIMUM, six fish = six eyeballs), over-filtration, over aeration, good water circulation and crystal clear water should be the goal of all hobbyists in order to have healthy fish."

I have a Fluval 407 in my 75G, I figured that would be sufficient for filtration and circulation.   I also have angels and I don't think they like to be blown around the tank with a 300gph wavemaker.  Maybe add a second can on the other side, or hide a sponge filter?

This is getting beyond frustrating, but again appreciate everyone willing to chime in.

 

[Colu]

It is possible you could have ich and epistylis as some of your fish have improved if your angelfish showed no signs of ick before they died I would be suspicious of a bacterial infection what I would do is another Course of super ick cure if that doesn't clear it up I would treat with kanaplex in food you will need seachems focus to act as a binding agent to mix with frozen food or pellets

Edited August 6, 2021 by Colu

[laritheloud]

Colu knows his stuff! I hope the rest of your fish pull through.

Also, bear in mind that if you are dealing with two different infections, this is a one-two punch and it's hard. The higher temps suitable for treating Ich could, at the same time, favor bacterial growth for a bacterial infection. You're doing great with this course of treatment so far. Have Kanaplex, Focus, and Garlic-Guard on standby and keep an eye on them.

[FredF]

On 8/3/2021 at 9:55 AM, Gator said:

Don't be afraid of 84 or 85 degrees in your tank, that temp range is not going to harm your fish (unless you try to keep Goldfish at this temp) or your plants. Your fish, including your Platies, and plants all come from water that is in this temp range.

My main tank has been at about 84.9 for years and the temp has not hurt any of my plants, they grow so fast that I have to trim them once a month.

I can't remember the last time I had to medicate this tank for anything so now, after reading an article on Columanaris from the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, all of my tanks will slowly be raised to about 85 degrees to prevent all diseases.

Do you add any supplements to your water? The only supplement I use is Flourish Iron because aquatic plants really need iron, and I've seen my plants pearling several times over the years. Pearling is really cool.

Do you have your lights on a timer and if so, what is your timer schedule? My timers are all set to come on at 8AM, go off at 11:30AM, come back on at 4:30PM, and go off for the night at 8PM.  This is pretty much what our fish and plants would experience in a rain forest, the day starts sunny, then it's cloudy, then it's sunny again, then it's dark for the night, and the cycle starts all over again at 8AM the next morning. I have very little algae.

We must remember that our aquatic plants take in CO2 during the day and give off oxygen at night, just as our terrestrial plants do. 

What type of lighting do you have? I bought my first programable LED light about 10 years ago and I'll never go back to full spectrum fluorescent lights. My fish and plants stand out so much better under LED lights.

My electric bill went down so I changed all of the light bulbs in my house to LED bulbs and I don't have to buy new fluorescent bulbs for my aquarium every year. It's a win-win-win for my wallet, my fish, and the environment.

Do you have Driftwood, Mopani wood, or Cholla wood in your tank? These would soften your water and lower the pH more in favor of your Angel's, Cory's, Tetra's, and Oto's, not so much in favor of your Platies. Platies, Mollies, Swordtails, and Guppies all prefer a pH range of about 7.6 and above. These fish can be acclimated to live and thrive in a saltwater tank.

Sailfin Mollies are native to Florida and can be found living in the brackish water where the Everglades meets the ocean, if it's an option for you, you may wish to set up a separate tank just for your Platies, but don't add Mollies, Swordtails, and Guppies to this tank, they can all interbreed with each other. 

If you get the right number of plants in relation to the number of fish you have, you'll never need an air stone unless you actually want one. Air stones may provide too much oxygen in the daytime disrupting our plants ability to take in enough CO2 to stay alive, so I don't use them.

I hope I've helped in some small way.

Sincerely

Gator 

 

 

 

Thanks.  My lights are fully automatic with a Fluval 3.0 48" from CO OP.  I recently cut it down the light to 50% to stress the fish out less and also I read the light could interfere with the ich medication.  I'm using a mix of fluval stratum and coarse sand as the substrate.  The wood is manzanita, and the rocks are blue petrified wood.  The fluval lowers the KH and pH of my water, but my overall hardness is still quite high.  The pH lingers around 6.6-6.8 due to the stratum.  I was thinking since the GH of my water is more on the hard side, even though the KH is low that the platies might handle it.  Was more a nostalgic fish choice, as I had a 10g and bred livebearers like crazy as a kid in the early 80's.  Weird thing is I never had any of the problems I am having now, with a 10g tank with a UGF, tiny box filter with floss and carbon, clown puke gravel, and some plants, and eventually way too many fish.  My new tank is probably more suited to a planted tetra set up, but I figured most fish now are bred in harder water, so mixing may not be as big of an issue.  There are platy fry hiding in the tank in the moss and rocks despite all the nasty disease going on.

This was my first attempt to really try to scape a tank rather than just putting some in haphazardly.

I'm going to research the temps and such once I get done with battling whatever I got.  I'm not even sure I should be keeping the temps high now, but will err on the high side for the time being.

 

 

[Gator]

FredF;

Thanks!

The timers for the lights on three of my four tanks are set in such a way that my plants all receive seven hours of direct light and five hours of ambient light. My plants all grow great, my fish all love it, and I have very little algae to deal with, and what little I do have, the Oto's take care of.

I got my information on water temps for preventing diseases in our tanks from the Minnesota Dept. of Natural Resources. To read the article, which is only two paragraphs long, Google Columanaris, scroll down until you find an article by the MNDNR, this small article is still full of useful intel.

With the exception of live bearers and African Cichlids, our aquarium fish are blackwater fish, meaning they prefer soft acidic water which is easy to duplicate in our tanks. In my Marineland C-220 canister filter I have four media baskets, I removed the activated carbon and the bio-rings, but added filter foam made for this filter so I have all four baskets of filter foam. On top of the last basket of filter foam I added a small media bag with a tablespoon of Fluval peat pellets to create a blackwater environment. 

Because of the tannic acid in the water in FL, the surface water in FL is soft and acidic, there's no way around it. The fish farms ESE of Tampa use the surface water in their ponds to breed our blackwater fish, the ponds are open to the sun so the water in them is hot.

The University of Florida works closely with these fish farms to enhance breeding technics and have found that Tetra's prefer the soft, acidic, hot water to breed, but prefer a lower light schedule than a day of full sunlight. 

I have 18 Neon's that I've had for about a year and three Bronze Corie's that I've had for about five years in a 10G tank that has an Aqua Tech, 10-20 HOB that has a small media bag with a teaspoon of Fluval peat pellets nestled in on the intake side of the filter. I replaced the activated carbon with a piece of Fluval filter foam cut to fit the area behind where the activated carbon used to be, the fit is snug enough so there is no water bypass.  

I have an Amazon sword in this tank that is one of the daughters of an Amazon sword in my main tank, I have six Crypt's, one Java fern attached to a piece of Lava rock, and I started out with one Hygrophila polysperma that I kept cutting to encourage branching and branch it did, it now covers one end of the tank with a lush, thick growth that I keep at six inches tall.

My Tetra's can only be seen in the open at feeding time or when the light is off, they spend the lighted hours deep inside the growth of the Hygrophila and the Corie's are under the Amazon sword.  

You're doing great, but keep those water temps up and consider creating a blackwater environment for your Tetra's.

Sincerely

Gator

 

[FredF]

On 8/5/2021 at 10:18 PM, laritheloud said:

Colu knows his stuff! I hope the rest of your fish pull through.

Also, bear in mind that if you are dealing with two different infections, this is a one-two punch and it's hard. The higher temps suitable for treating Ich could, at the same time, favor bacterial growth for a bacterial infection. You're doing great with this course of treatment so far. Have Kanaplex, Focus, and Garlic-Guard on standby and keep an eye on them.

Thanks.  I finished my second round of API.  Many of the cardinals remain unchanged.  I will attach a picture below.  I’m thinking the Kanaplex as Colu suggested may be the way to go.

Should I lower the temp or keep as is.

Thanks again,

 

 

[quikv6]

That last pic really looks like Ich. I think switching to a proven med such as Ich-X would be valuable.