Betta/Shrimp in hard, high PH water?

[DarthRevan]

On 7/13/2021 at 9:54 AM, Patrick_G said:

I would definitely go with fertilizer. I use Easy Green and API Leaf Zone. In a 40 breeder with that light and the plants you’ve selected you’ll probably dose at the medium light level. Make sure your substrate level plants are not in the shade. I lost three pots of Pearl weed that weren’t getting enough light. 
I’ve been adding a layer of Aquasoil and gravel under sand like MD fish tanks recommends. Just in case I pop some root tabs under plants that are supposed to be heavy root feeders. 

Ok perfect, I had some easy green in my cart but I didn’t know if I’d need anything else. 
 

I’m definitely doing the MD substrate mix for the root feeders lol I feel like he really nailed that system he has down. Root tabs are a good idea too. 
 

Thanks for all the tips I appreciate it 😄

[NanoNano]

You have mainly root feeding plants in your cart,  so I would second getting root tabs as well.   You have *a lot* of plants in your initial order.  I would suggest that you split that order in half if not thirds as:  1) The Co-op is fairly picky and the plants they send out - you should be confident that you'll get strong hearty plants with an excellent chance to thrive.  2) You've got multiples of plants that can get *huge* in there like swords and can send out runners and spawn "satellites" like Crypts. You'll likely end up with some additional plants from whatever you purchase.  3) As you note,  you *might* have some species that don't dig your hard water,  so better to discover that by losing just a single  if you have something that just doesn't thrive.

I'd highly recommend looking at Reddit's r/PlantedTank forum- they have frequent posts of "how it started / how it's going" where people show the grow out results of their tanks.  The amount of growth can be *astounding* even in a matter of just a few weeks. You want to be careful to not overplant. Two of the things you want to be thoughtful of in your scenario are 1) Open access to the water surface for your Betta to surface breathe.  Sword and Octopus leaves can block a lot fo surface area when they get long.  Floaters can complicate access.  2) Dissolved oxygen levels- When there's light,  plants photosynthesize and produce oxygen,  BUT when it's dark,  plants will absorb oxygen from the water column creating the potential for both low dissolved O2 levels and PH changes.   Shrimp are sensitive to both (low O2 and PH swings), so you want to be thoughtful about not super duper over planting- especially if you're looking to have them breed.

Edited July 13, 2021 by NanoNano

[DarthRevan]

On 7/13/2021 at 12:56 PM, NanoNano said:

You have mainly root feeding plants in your cart,  so I would second getting root tabs as well.   You have *a lot* of plants in your initial order.  I would suggest that you split that order in half if not thirds as:  1) The Co-op is fairly picky and the plants they send out - you should be confident that you'll get strong hearty plants with an excellent chance to thrive.  2) You've got multiples of plants that can get *huge* in there like swords and can send out runners and spawn "satellites" like Crypts. You'll likely end up with some additional plants from whatever you purchase.  3) As you note,  you *might* have some species that don't dig your hard water,  so better to discover that by losing just a single  if you have something that just doesn't thrive.

I'd highly recommend looking at Reddit's r/PlantedTank forum- they have frequent posts of "how it started / how it's going" where people show the grow out results of their tanks.  The amount of growth can be *astounding* even in a matter of just a few weeks. You want to be careful to not overplant. Two of the things you want to be thoughtful of in your scenario are 1) Open access to the water surface for your Betta to surface breathe.  Sword and Octopus leaves can block a lot fo surface area when they get long.  Floaters can complicate access.  2) Dissolved oxygen levels- When there's light,  plants photosynthesize and produce oxygen,  BUT when it's dark,  plants will absorb oxygen from the water column creating the potential for both low dissolved O2 levels and PH changes.   Shrimp are sensitive to both (low O2 and PH swings), so you want to be thoughtful about not super duper over planting- especially if you're looking to have them breed.

That is some excellent advice, thank you. I was thinking about taking some out because my order is already crazy expensive lol so you just helped me confirm that. I got so many at first because I didn’t want to wait too long for them to start spreading and establishing, but I also don’t want to overplant. I just need to be more patient 😂

I will be keeping the stems trimmed regularly though, I’m not letting this tank get overgrown because I want to keep a fairly neat look to it. I’m still not sure on floating plants, I haven’t found any that I really like yet but I will definitely keep my betta in mind and make sure it has space up top. 
 

Do you think in addition to cutting back on plants I should also get an air stone for at night to help keep it oxygenated?

[Patrick_G]

In my outside gardening I can wait for plants to fill in, sometimes it takes years but I’m ok with that. In my my aquascaping I want it to look good right now! @NanoNano’s advice is sensible, but I’d probably do the opposite and pack even more plants  in there! 🤣 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Patrick_G

[DarthRevan]

On 7/13/2021 at 1:20 PM, Patrick_G said:

In my outside gardening I can wait for plants to fill in, sometimes it takes years but I’m ok with that. In my my aquascaping I want it to look good right now! @NanoNano’s advice is sensible, but I’d probably do the opposite and pack even more plants  in there! 🤣 

Right you want your vision set up before you end up changing your mind 😂

I did take a few off though lol, especially the stems. Those grow like weeds so I can just trim and replant and it’ll be filled in no time. It’s hard to take it slow when you’re new 😂

[Patrick_G]

I’d recommend the Coop Wisteria. apparently they now have it in submerged growth form. That means you won’t have to go through the sometimes frustrating period when it’s converting from air grown to submerged form. 

[DarthRevan]

On 7/13/2021 at 4:39 PM, Patrick_G said:

I’d recommend the Coop Wisteria. apparently they now have it in submerged growth form. That means you won’t have to go through the sometimes frustrating period when it’s converting from air grown to submerged form. 

I love the way that looks! It’ll add a lot of texture to the tank. 
 

I just checked though and it’s sold out 😭 Hopefully it comes back in by the time I’m ready to order lol

[SWilson]

Congrats and this is so very exciting!  Keep us posted on your tank setting up and journey!

I have a very similar array plants that you had in your cart in my 40 gal breeder except the monte carlo.  The crypts were actually propogated from another tank (I think I originally 3-4 small bunches of crypt wenditii, and that is now my foreground "cover" plant in the 40 gal).  It's always possible to go light with plants at first and then propogate/expand later, but it's much more satisfying to have a heavily planted tank right from the get go. 

For whateer reason, sword plants for me have not been getting huge, but lilies (red liily bulb and tiger lotus bulb) always do. I love the easy red color that they add.  I do not use CO2 in this tank.   

I had endlers, salt and pepper corydoras, mystery snails, ramshorns, and a betta in there.  My water pH is in the high 7s-8, and hard like yours.  (the betta has since been moved out of the 40 gal because I noticed he was getting fin rot, which may have to do with a variety of factors, but I suspected that one of them was that there was too much action in the 40 gal, but also could be water quality due to stocking density.  Could also be that the water parameters aren't ideal.) 

I love the endlers, in my experience they live up to their reputation as bullet proof fish and I would recommend them to anyone.  They did really breed out of control (hence my hobby has expanded from one 16 gallon with 3 endlers to 7 tanks with probably 50+ endlers...and I would have more like 100 endlers if I didn't start feeding the babies to my puffers - which is a long story and was very hard for me to ultimately do 😬)  I don't really have an outlet for selling them like I thought I would, I had to go to a different city to buy them, and my LFS does not want the extras I have, not even the males because my local market is much more into salt water than fresh.  If I could go back, I would've just gotten males.  now that I have so many I have a few 'bachelor' tanks, and those are quite fun.    

My betta is doing ok in my water (the water at the store I got him from is above 8 pH, but soft water).   I acclimated him for about an hour.  I found that he didn't harm any of the other fish, but he chased the female endlers more than the male endlers (which was a surprise to me, because I thought the colors of the males would set him off more).  He is a veil tail, and not fast enough to eat baby endlers to help with population control.  The other centerpiece fish I was considering was a single gourami (would've loved to do a pair of apistogramma, but I heard they need soft water).  

Betta nips so much at snails that I don't really want to try him with shrimp.  But I think your plan to just try a few is a good one.  Every betta is different.  I keep shrimp (yellow neocaridina) in a separate tank with similar water parameters, and they do well.  I've only had them for about 5 months, and they're definitely reproducing, but not as prolifically as I would have hoped or what the youtubers make it sound like.  They are in the tank with some large female endlers, who are great at controlling planeria, but might also be picking off baby shrimp.  In addition to catappa/indian almond leaves, I also use cholla wood and rock piles to give the shrimp/baby shrimp places to hide.   

Sorry this got so long, I hope it's helpful. I think I've posted pics of my 40b elsewhere on the forum, I could try to find them and link if you want (not that it's really special or anything lol, but just since we have similar plant selections). 

[DarthRevan]

On 7/13/2021 at 4:49 PM, SWilson said:

Congrats and this is so very exciting!  Keep us posted on your tank setting up and journey!

I have a very similar array plants that you had in your cart in my 40 gal breeder except the monte carlo.  The crypts were actually propogated from another tank (I think I originally 3-4 small bunches of crypt wenditii, and that is now my foreground "cover" plant in the 40 gal).  It's always possible to go light with plants at first and then propogate/expand later, but it's much more satisfying to have a heavily planted tank right from the get go. 

For whateer reason, sword plants for me have not been getting huge, but lilies (red liily bulb and tiger lotus bulb) always do. I love the easy red color that they add.  I do not use CO2 in this tank.   

I had endlers, salt and pepper corydoras, mystery snails, ramshorns, and a betta in there.  My water pH is in the high 7s-8, and hard like yours.  (the betta has since been moved out of the 40 gal because I noticed he was getting fin rot, which may have to do with a variety of factors, but I suspected that one of them was that there was too much action in the 40 gal, but also could be water quality due to stocking density.  Could also be that the water parameters aren't ideal.) 

I love the endlers, in my experience they live up to their reputation as bullet proof fish and I would recommend them to anyone.  They did really breed out of control (hence my hobby has expanded from one 16 gallon with 3 endlers to 7 tanks with probably 50+ endlers...and I would have more like 100 endlers if I didn't start feeding the babies to my puffers - which is a long story and was very hard for me to ultimately do 😬)  I don't really have an outlet for selling them like I thought I would, I had to go to a different city to buy them, and my LFS does not want the extras I have, not even the males because my local market is much more into salt water than fresh.  If I could go back, I would've just gotten males.  now that I have so many I have a few 'bachelor' tanks, and those are quite fun.    

My betta is doing ok in my water (the water at the store I got him from is above 8 pH, but soft water).   I acclimated him for about an hour.  I found that he didn't harm any of the other fish, but he chased the female endlers more than the male endlers (which was a surprise to me, because I thought the colors of the males would set him off more).  He is a veil tail, and not fast enough to eat baby endlers to help with population control.  The other centerpiece fish I was considering was a single gourami (would've loved to do a pair of apistogramma, but I heard they need soft water).  

Betta nips so much at snails that I don't really want to try him with shrimp.  But I think your plan to just try a few is a good one.  Every betta is different.  I keep shrimp (yellow neocaridina) in a separate tank with similar water parameters, and they do well.  I've only had them for about 5 months, and they're definitely reproducing, but not as prolifically as I would have hoped or what the youtubers make it sound like.  They are in the tank with some large female endlers, who are great at controlling planeria, but might also be picking off baby shrimp.  In addition to catappa/indian almond leaves, I also use cholla wood and rock piles to give the shrimp/baby shrimp places to hide.   

Sorry this got so long, I hope it's helpful. I think I've posted pics of my 40b elsewhere on the forum, I could try to find them and link if you want (not that it's really special or anything lol, but just since we have similar plant selections). 

This was super helpful, thank you! I love hearing stuff like this because it gives me other perspectives than just the 4 or 5 people I watch on YouTube lol. 
 

I’m really hoping I don’t get an overly aggressive betta who wants to eat snails and shrimp lol, but my backup plan is to have a 10 gallon set up for it if it becomes a problem. I’m still debating on whether I want a veil tail or a plakat. I love the showiness of the veil tails but I also love the streamlined predator look of the plakats lol. But I know they also are able to catch more shrimp/fry so I’m not sure 😂 and thanks for the advice with the cholla wood I had not thought of that before, I was hoping a lot of plant cover would do it lol. 
 

I hope if I get Endlers they don’t reproduce that much, but I was also looking at some mollies because they’re fun to watch and a little bigger. 
 

If you have pictures that would be great for inspiration! I’ll see if I can find your posts lol

[SWilson]

I admit my betta was a bit of an impulse purchase...heh...I had been looking at wild-types, plakats, and I really love the look of alien bettas.  The story of my ridiculous store trip ending up with the betta (and some other new friends) along with a photo and video of the 40 (the 40 is the first picture, second pic is just a pleco in quarantine) is here:

Things have grown in a bit more since then, particularly the crypts.  They are steadily becoming my new favorite plants.  They do so well and are so easy to propagate and spread.   I just rewatched the video I posted and the dwarf lilies are HUGE now in comparison lol.  I better get back to work (always procrasti-posting over here hah), but maybe I'll post an update on that thread later.  

We (my partner and I) are actually really starting to get into mollies! I never realized how cute they are before.  I really like the dalmatian mollies, and recently I saw white and orange spotted ones at a store.  They were so cool looking!  We've never kept them before though.  Another fish I suprised myself with really liking is plecos.  The bristlenose plecos are really cool, and among the types we have (clown pleco and green phantom pleco) they are the most outgoing and visible.

I think what I'll ultimately do with the 40b is move as many of the endlers into a 55gallon as I can catch (I've started doing this and its turning into a community tank with endlers, amazon puffers, and the green phantom pleco). And then get more of the same species of corydoras.  I might add something else at the top level eventually, but I really want to see if I can colony breed the salt and peppers.  They're currently not getting a lot food because of the endlers and mystery snails, and if they are laying eggs, the eggs are probably getting eaten.  

Mr. betta is soon gonna go solo into a 15 gallon my partner just broke down (we're consolidating our tanks because it turns out fish were a gateway drug into the reptile hobby for my partner lol).  Not that it's for me to say, but you really know your stuff and have done your homework, having thought of a plan B tank.  

Anyway, can't wait to see pics of your tank as you get it set up!  

[DarthRevan]

On 7/13/2021 at 5:47 PM, SWilson said:

I admit my betta was a bit of an impulse purchase...heh...I had been looking at wild-types, plakats, and I really love the look of alien bettas.  The story of my ridiculous store trip ending up with the betta (and some other new friends) along with a photo and video of the 40 (the 40 is the first picture, second pic is just a pleco in quarantine) is here:

Things have grown in a bit more since then, particularly the crypts.  They are steadily becoming my new favorite plants.  They do so well and are so easy to propagate and spread.   I just rewatched the video I posted and the dwarf lilies are HUGE now in comparison lol.  I better get back to work (always procrasti-posting over here hah), but maybe I'll post an update on that thread later.  

We (my partner and I) are actually really starting to get into mollies! I never realized how cute they are before.  I really like the dalmatian mollies, and recently I saw white and orange spotted ones at a store.  They were so cool looking!  We've never kept them before though.  Another fish I suprised myself with really liking is plecos.  The bristlenose plecos are really cool, and among the types we have (clown pleco and green phantom pleco) they are the most outgoing and visible.

I think what I'll ultimately do with the 40b is move as many of the endlers into a 55gallon as I can catch (I've started doing this and its turning into a community tank with endlers, amazon puffers, and the green phantom pleco). And then get more of the same species of corydoras.  I might add something else at the top level eventually, but I really want to see if I can colony breed the salt and peppers.  They're currently not getting a lot food because of the endlers and mystery snails, and if they are laying eggs, the eggs are probably getting eaten.  

Mr. betta is soon gonna go solo into a 15 gallon my partner just broke down (we're consolidating our tanks because it turns out fish were a gateway drug into the reptile hobby for my partner lol).  Not that it's for me to say, but you really know your stuff and have done your homework, having thought of a plan B tank.  

Anyway, can't wait to see pics of your tank as you get it set up!  

I freaking LOVE that tank setup! I bet it looks even more amazing all grown in now. I can only hope to be anywhere close to that 😂 Alien bettas are really cool too I agree but there’s nowhere I can get them here and I’m hesitant to order fish online lol  

I also love crypts, they just add such a unique look to the foreground and break up the stems lol. 
 

They are really cute I love to watch them just swim around looking for food at my LFS haha. They breed a lot as well though so be careful 😂 Plecos are really cool and they hold their own in a community I feel like lol. I may get some of those instead of Ottos. 
 

Hahaha I feel like sometimes fish and reptiles do go hand in hand. But I’m sure the betta will appreciate not having so much action going on all the time if it was getting stressed before lol. My partner wants a bearded dragon in a bioactive terrarium but I was like that’s all on you I chose fish for my hobby 😂

But thank you for the advice and encouragement, I will definitely be posting updates. I’d love to see updates on your various tanks too once you get them sorted! Back to work for both of us  I guess 🤣

[NanoNano]

On 7/13/2021 at 1:12 PM, DarthRevan said:

That is some excellent advice, thank you. I was thinking about taking some out because my order is already crazy expensive lol so you just helped me confirm that. I got so many at first because I didn’t want to wait too long for them to start spreading and establishing, but I also don’t want to overplant. I just need to be more patient 😂

I will be keeping the stems trimmed regularly though, I’m not letting this tank get overgrown because I want to keep a fairly neat look to it. I’m still not sure on floating plants, I haven’t found any that I really like yet but I will definitely keep my betta in mind and make sure it has space up top. 
 

Do you think in addition to cutting back on plants I should also get an air stone for at night to help keep it oxygenated?

So a couple more thoughts for you:

*  I don't think you've talked about hardscape (wood, stone, etc.).  Not sure what you've considered here,  but probably good to think about that well as different material/ textures/ help create depth and height variations that really make plants visually pop and are part of making an effective tank biome.

* There's a design principle called The Rule of Thirds (often referred to in photography,  but the rule traces back to the 1700's).   The rectangular shape of a tank follows the same constraint as a painting or photo,  so following the rule works really well with aquarium design too.  Rules are made to be broken however so it's not an absolute 🙂 .

* Your current selection of plants is pretty uniformly green.  Plant supply is still pretty constrained, so there's a degree of "take what you can get",  but things like Crypts and Val do come in several different shades (bronze, green, red, pink, etc.).  You may want to think about getting a "feature" plant in a bold color to break things up.  Take a close look at other tanks here as using color needs to be done a little deliberately.  You usually need to either get a single plant of a single color as a "pop" or dedicate an area of your tank to multiple plants of the same color as a focus area.  Spreading too many plants of color and too many different colors around can make things look like a bowl of Froot Loops.

* Trimming requires some skill and experience- good trimming tools are worth their cost.

* The goal of aeration is to break the surface tension of the water so that gas can exchange with it.  If you have a filter that already does this,  an airstone may not be necessary.  In a 40 gallon, there's enough room for a Betta to stay away from the bubbles and current if it bothers them,  so adding one if you don't have something already breaking the surface would work well. 

*  Veiltail Bettas were one of the original strain bred to be "Fighting Fish" and my experience is that *in general* they tend to have aggressive personalities.  Not impossible to keep with shrimp,  but you definitely should weigh (chill) personality as heavy as looks when picking one out.

Good luck!

Edited July 14, 2021 by NanoNano

[DarthRevan]

On 7/13/2021 at 6:26 PM, NanoNano said:

So a couple more thoughts for you:

*  I don't think you've talked about hardscape (wood, stone, etc.).  Not sure what you've considered here,  but probably good to think about that well as different material/ textures/ help create depth and height variations that really make plants visually pop and are part of making an effective tank biome.

* There's a design principle called The Rule of Thirds (often referred to in photography,  but the rule traces back to the 1700's).   The rectangular shape of a tank follows the same constraint as a painting or photo,  so following the rule works really well with aquarium design too.  Rules are made to be broken however so it's not an absolute 🙂 .

* Your current selection of plants is pretty uniformly green.  Plant supply is still pretty constrained, so there's a degree of "take what you can get",  but things like Crypts and Val do come in several different shades (bronze, green, red, pink, etc.).  You may want to think about getting a "feature" plant in a bold color to break things up.  Take a close look at other tanks here as using color needs to be done a little deliberately.  You usually need to either get a single plant of a single color as a "pop" or dedicate an area of your tank to multiple plants of the same color as a focus area.  Spreading too many plants of color and too many different colors around can make things look like a bowl of Froot Loops.

* Trimming requires some skill and experience- good trimming tools are worth their cost.

* The goal of aeration is to break the surface tension of the water so that gas can exchange with it.  If you have a filter that already does this,  an airstone may not be necessary.  In a 40 gallon, there's enough room for a Betta to stay away from the bubbles and current if it bothers them,  so adding one if you don't have something already breaking the surface would work well. 

*  Veiltail Bettas were one of the original strain bred to be "Fighting Fish" and my experience is that *in general* they tend to have aggressive personalities.  Not impossible to keep with shrimp,  but you definitely should weigh (chill) personality as heavy as looks when picking one out.

Good luck!

I will definitely have hardscape lol I just haven’t talked about it because I already know what I’m doing for it. I’m going to have Malaysian driftwood and probably seiryu stone or something similar that’s dark/gray. I was just more worried about possibly killing plants and fish 😅

I have seen a lot of aquascapers reference that rule and I definitely plan to use it as a starting point 😁

I do plan on adding more colors as well, my LFS has plants that Aquarium Coop doesn't offer at the moment, I just wanted to get a good green background going before figuring out where I need the extra pop of reds and bronze lol. 
 

I definitely got the curved scissors in my cart from Aquarium Coop lol, I see everyone use them and they seem to make things way easier once you get the hang of it!

Ah ok I wasn’t sure how that worked, I thought the bubbles were actually adding O2 to the water 😂 I’m going to have a Seachem Tidal 55 HOB, I went with that one because it’s bigger than I need and it has an adjustable flow so I’m not blowing my poor betta around lol. 
 

And I did not know that, thank you for the heads up. I was told bigger finned bettas are slower and have a harder time catching things, so they’re more recommended in a community setting, but if they’re generally more aggressive then that would defeat the purpose! I’ll be shopping around more once my LFS gets a new betta shipment in 😁

[DarthRevan]

Update: finally got everything set up. Used Fritz turbo start to jumpstart the cycle, this betta seems a little aggressive and some of the platies have chased him off a couple times, but he was by himself the whole time in the store so he may just need to get used to tank mates. I also saw him chase a couple of ottos but he gave up when he realized he couldn’t catch them. I don’t think I’ll be getting shrimp with this guy. 
 

I’m getting more plants from the Co-op Monday, these were just the best that my LFS had today. 
 

Does anyone know of any good algae wafers for the ottos? I got Hikari ones but they seem to be more for plecos because there’s fishmeal and krill in them. I put it in for like an hour but only the platies would eat it. Maybe they only eat at night? I couldn’t find any info on that online.