Murder fish!!!!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

So when I got my Black Neons (14) they started picking each other off- mostly at night under the cover of darkness. In the morning I'd count them and there would be 1 less so I'd look to recover the bodies. The first body when it started seemed untouched- I didn't see any visible wounds and the fish didn't have any outward signs of illness. Naturally one might think, just a natural death. Then it continued to happen, the other 2 I found had their fins nipped off all around. THEN there was the ultimate mystery- one of the bodies was never found! From that point forward Black Neons are now known as Murder Fish. 

When the number got down to 10 this behavior stopped. Or so I thought. I counted tails today as I do just about every day around feeding time (I think I didn't count yesterday so I could have lost it any time between then and this morning) and now I'm down to 9. And like the last one NO BODY!? It's like they're just perfecting their art. Before you ask, could it have jumped, that's a resounding no, my tank is rimmed and has a tight fitting lid there is a small gap but not one that any fish or snail could escape. I've checked the floor surrounding. I'm their only cartaker andd the lid is only opened for feedings and cleanings. I was starting to get things together to clean today and that's when I counted, multiple times. 

Can they eat the body that quickly? Does anybody else have this issue with supposed peaceful community fish?? It kind of creeps me out the little buggers. 

Edited June 22, 2021 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Fish Folk]

On 6/22/2021 at 4:46 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

So when I got my Black Neons (14) they started picking each other off- mostly at night under the cover of darkness. In the morning I'd count them and there would be 1 less so I'd look to recover the bodies. The first body when it started seemed untouched- I didn't see any visible wounds and the fish didn't have any outward signs of illness. Naturally one might think, just a natural death. Then it continued to happen, the other 2 I found had their fins nipped off all around. THEN there was the ultimate mystery- one of the bodies was never found! From that point forward Black Neons are now known as Murder Fish. 

When the number got down to 10 this behavior stopped. Or so I thought. I counted tails today as I do just about every day around feeding time (I think I didn't count yesterday so I could have lost it any time between then and this morning) and now I'm down to 9. And like the last one NO BODY!? It's like they're just perfecting their art. Before you ask, could it have jumped, that's a resounding no, my tank is rimmed and has a tight fitting lid there is a small gap but not one that any fish or snail could escape. I've checked the floor surrounding. I'm their only cartaker andd the lid is only opened for feedings and cleanings. I was starting to get things together to clean today and that's when I counted, multiple times. 

Can they eat the body that quickly? Does anybody else have this issue with supposed peaceful community fish?? It kind of creeps me out the little buggers. 

I’ve never experienced this with black neons. What else is in the tank?

I’ve definitely had Geophagus and Cichlids swallow some.  

[laritheloud]

On 6/22/2021 at 4:46 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

So when I got my Black Neons (14) they started picking each other off- mostly at night under the cover of darkness. In the morning I'd count them and there would be 1 less so I'd look to recover the bodies. The first body when it started seemed untouched- I didn't see any visible wounds and the fish didn't have any outward signs of illness. Naturally one might think, just a natural death. Then it continued to happen, the other 2 I found had their fins nipped off all around. THEN there was the ultimate mystery- one of the bodies was never found! From that point forward Black Neons are now known as Murder Fish. 

When the number got down to 10 this behavior stopped. Or so I thought. I counted tails today as I do just about every day around feeding time (I think I didn't count yesterday so I could have lost it any time between then and this morning) and now I'm down to 9. And like the last one NO BODY!? It's like they're just perfecting their art. Before you ask, could it have jumped, that's a resounding no, my tank is rimmed and has a tight fitting lid there is a small gap but not one that any fish or snail could escape. I've checked the floor surrounding. I'm their only cartaker andd the lid is only opened for feedings and cleanings. I was starting to get things together to clean today and that's when I counted, multiple times. 

Can they eat the body that quickly? Does anybody else have this issue with supposed peaceful community fish?? It kind of creeps me out the little buggers. 

I'm not experiencing mysterious disappearances and murders, but I see so much violent sparring between two diamond tetra males in particular. Like, scales flying, fins ripping, etc. One (my third adult male) is clearly last-in-line and had a tip of his tail fin chewed, but otherwise he is fine.

I'm pretty sure the size of the school isn't making a difference because the school is growing itself. This is competitive breeding behavior and I know it.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Fish Folk There's nothing else other than Nerites in that tank for now. There are only plans to add a Hillstream Loach at some point and maybe a few of my own bred Otos.....so I'm hoping when I do that in a month or 2 they don't attack other species. 

@laritheloud It could be but I haven't a clue. I know they're egg scatterers but though I look I'm not sure any have been laid. But again, they're Murder Fish so they probably ate those too the little stinkers. 

I kinda wish I'd picked another species of Rasboras. My Harlequins are so much more peaceful than my Murder Fish. 

[laritheloud]

On 6/22/2021 at 4:59 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@Fish Folk There's nothing else other than Nerites in that tank for now. There are only plans to add a Hillstream Loach at some point and maybe a few of my own bred Otos.....so I'm hoping when I do that in a month or 2 they don't attack other species. 

@laritheloud It could be but I haven't a clue. I know they're egg scatterers but though I look I'm not sure any have been laid. But again, they're Murder Fish so they probably ate those too the little stinkers. 

I kinda wish I'd picked another species of Rasboras. My Harlequins are so much more peaceful than my Murder Fish. 

Lol, my tetras lay eggs almost daily. And eat them as they come out. 😐 Yet... we still have babies happening. Siiiiiiigh. 

I don't really want to try again with tetras and will be going with rasboras next time.

[sudofish]

Maybe the nerites did it? Only joking. But a relative kept a tank that only had mystery snails and a single betta fish. The betta didn't last a week and no body was ever found. It didn't appear sick but obviously snails can't actually murder fish. Or can they?

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

LOL 🙂 Well @sudofish if the Nerites ARE suspects in this plot they are only recently in on it as this originally occured when the Murder Fish were the ONLY ones in the tank. I am not going to rule out that they may at the very least be accomplices. 

I had a betta that seemed perfectly peaceful around 4 ghost shrimp for several weeks until they too, quietly disappeared with no evidence (the shrimp of course not the betta)....

Edited June 22, 2021 by xXInkedPhoenixX
Typos are lame

[tonyjuliano]

On 6/22/2021 at 4:46 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

So when I got my Black Neons (14) they started picking each other off- mostly at night under the cover of darkness

I have doubts about this supposed predation.  

Have you witnessed them attacking each other?  Not merely chasing, I mean real aggression, because you make no mention of this.

Have you considered that something else is killing them?  It’s more than likely.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@tonyjuliano I'm open to this possibiity, but I have my doubts- that's part of the reason to post here- to keep an open mind and see if there is another idea. When I first got this fish I actually got it because another forum member @Krakens_tanks was excitedly talking about his incoming black neons. He, too, had the same problem when he got his and they were in much higher numbers. So us both suspecting they were doing it at night, HE watched them do it. He advised us that he turned off his lights and sat quietly observing his tank when the aggression started. He in the end was down to only very few of a very large group in the end. 

I saw the intended victim(s) hiding prior to darkness and every time it came out from hiding it was promptly chased back to the corner it came from. It was always the smaller ones of the group. But no, other than that and some rather aggressive chasing and maybe even nip or 2 if they were slow enough on the tail I saw nothing outright. And funnily enough no wounds prior to the lights coming on in the morning. I also don't see any on any of them now.  

What other things do you think it may be? 

...and I am still baffled by 2 missing bodies. 

Edited June 22, 2021 by xXInkedPhoenixX
1 more thing.

[tonyjuliano]

On 6/22/2021 at 6:12 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

What other things do you think it may be? 

Well, a disease or parasitic infection of some sort (I’m assuming your water parameters are good).

On 6/22/2021 at 6:12 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

..and I am still baffled by 2 missing bodies. 

It’s very easy to miss a dead fish, especially one as small as a neon. Ammonia level would tell the tale.

I’ve never, ever, seen any neon consume another.

Question… Did your friend and you get those neons from the same source?

Edited June 22, 2021 by tonyjuliano

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@tonyjuliano could be disease as it always can so I'm watching them but have so far at least seen no evidence, physical or behavioral (at least when the lights are on). I concede you will not always find physical or behavioral evidence of either but they've never given me reason to believe there is an illness in the tank and they all eat well.

Parameters are good and stable since I got them now nearly 3 months ago. After the first few weeks of the four deaths nothing happened since until today. I liquid test weekly just because I happen to enjoy it. ph 7, 0 and 0 on ammonia and nitrite and 20 nitrates. Water is hard but it always is here. They are in a 20 gallon that sits side by side with my original 20 gallon and there are not concerns with that tank at all. My tanks are unheated but right now that tank is over 77 degrees. I run air driven sponge and media filters so an HOB is out of the running for being a cuprit in deaths. I also have a 10 gallon grow out tank with more than 60 Oto babies and there have been no issues there either or in my 3 gallon betta tank that while inhabitant is new has been running for over 8 months (just logically ruling out water issues).

I suppose the only difference between this particular tank and the others is the bladder snails that exist in it- but I'm not aware of any disease that they could transmit and the only bad effect could be dead snail decay that causes ammonia, of which there isn't any. 

As to neon source, the other forum member is in the midwest. I am on the west coast- while it's ENTIRELY possible even then we got fish from the same source I got my from a LFS he got his also from a LFS but they were special ordered so they were basically shipped and then he retrieved them from the store before they hit a tank.

[CT_]

On 6/22/2021 at 1:46 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

Can they eat the body that quickly? Does anybody else have this issue with supposed peaceful community fish?? It kind of creeps me out the little buggers. 

I've lost cardinals and maybe 2 otos in my tank.  never once found a body even after moving everything.  I either have cannibals or a space-time vortex in my tank.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I'm wondering if @laritheloud is right about breeding aggression as IF it is true that they are picking each other off then them doing this periodically could make sense as they are not always in breeding mode I'd imagine. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@CT_ see it can happen. Neons are small but I have a hard time believing that if it's in there I haven't found it. I have black substrate in most of the tank and the plants aren't fully grown. There are not that many places to hide and I've been around the whole tank today. 

Being a 20 gallon tall there isnt much floor space. 

Edited June 22, 2021 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Krakens_tanks]

On 6/22/2021 at 6:25 PM, tonyjuliano said:

Well, a disease or parasitic infection of some sort (I’m assuming your water parameters are good).

It’s very easy to miss a dead fish, especially one as small as a neon. Ammonia level would tell the tale.

I’ve never, ever, seen any neon consume another.

Question… Did your friend and you get those neons from the same source?

No we live in completely opposite sides of the country. I ended up with only 2 B.neons left a week later. As mentioned I sat for a couple hours one night and saw that the larger sized neons were fin nipping and bashing the smaller ones. I have called it up to the large mixture of size from small to large in size and the stress levels caused by transport (whole sales to my store was 2 days, was at store for 30 minutes before I picked them up then added to my tank about 20 minutes later so going from bag water store tank to mine all very quickly. I did regular water parameters checking with the api master kit. As well as had lights off the first 24 hrs they were in the tank as well as drip acclimated them to the tank. I never saw any signs of illness or parasites in the fish. Just missing fins and some even had small chunks out of them some were event found sort bent like there back was damaged ( which none had that defect coming in ) so that's why I assume stress sent them on a frenzy.

[laritheloud]

On 6/22/2021 at 6:42 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I'm wondering if @laritheloud is right about breeding aggression as IF it is true that they are picking each other off then them doing this periodically could make sense as they are not always in breeding mode I'd imagine. 

It's just my specific experience with tetras (diamond tetras). There is one alpha male who looks absolutely stunning. His fins are perfect, he absolutely sparkles, he's colorful and dominant. He clearly runs the entire school. He claimed one corner of the tank as the breeding grounds, and only he is allowed in that area when he's in the mood -- which is extremely often (I'd say a few times a week). He will display and court the females over to his corner and they'll scatter eggs together. If he catches another male or his competing male approaching, he will chase the male to the other side of the tank, best case scenario. If he spots another male actively displaying and courting a female, he will nip, ram, body-slam, and spar the offending male into submission.

The tetras will only do this to each other. They have never once attacked a fish that wasn't each other, and it is only the dominant male that attacks his challengers. The rest are perfectly peaceful. I'm concerned about the challenging male as I've seen scales go flying and he often has tattered fins, but so far, the wounds seem to be only superficial. I keep a close eye on him and if he ever starts declining I'll net him out and put him into quarantine.

[HH Morant]

It was the butler behind the sponge filter.

[HH Morant]

With a candlestick.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

In the library, yes. 

[laritheloud]

In any case, I did a google search about neon tetra aggression toward each other and it's definitely not unheard of. I'm going to go back and default to "I really think this is just how tetras are sometimes."

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@CT_ maybe dead fish go where all the missing socks go. 

[CT_]

On 6/22/2021 at 4:00 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@CT_ maybe dead fish go where all the missing socks go. 

I hope you're in the right age range to appreciate this, but this is where my mind immediately went.

Edited June 22, 2021 by CT_

[Guppysnail]

On 6/22/2021 at 6:40 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@tonyjuliano could be disease as it always can so I'm watching them but have so far at least seen no evidence, physical or behavioral (at least when the lights are on). I concede you will not always find physical or behavioral evidence of either but they've never given me reason to believe there is an illness in the tank and they all eat well.

Parameters are good and stable since I got them now nearly 3 months ago. After the first few weeks of the four deaths nothing happened since until today. I liquid test weekly just because I happen to enjoy it. ph 7, 0 and 0 on ammonia and nitrite and 20 nitrates. Water is hard but it always is here. They are in a 20 gallon that sits side by side with my original 20 gallon and there are not concerns with that tank at all. My tanks are unheated but right now that tank is over 77 degrees. I run air driven sponge and media filters so an HOB is out of the running for being a cuprit in deaths. I also have a 10 gallon grow out tank with more than 60 Oto babies and there have been no issues there either or in my 3 gallon betta tank that while inhabitant is new has been running for over 8 months (just logically ruling out water issues).

I suppose the only difference between this particular tank and the others is the bladder snails that exist in it- but I'm not aware of any disease that they could transmit and the only bad effect could be dead snail decay that causes ammonia, of which there isn't any. 

As to neon source, the other forum member is in the midwest. I am on the west coast- while it's ENTIRELY possible even then we got fish from the same source I got my from a LFS he got his also from a LFS but they were special ordered so they were basically shipped and then he retrieved them from the store before they hit a tank.

Bladder snails probably consumed the deceased missing fish

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@CT_ totallly am!  One of my most favorite cartoons! 😄

@Guppysnail if that's the case I should have made my peace with bladder snails a long time ago!!! 🙂