How long to go without a water change?

[Streetwise]

Those are all the White Clouds that I grew up in my tubs, and then moved indoors to a new organic soil tank with new Mopani wood. I love the tannins, but the water is tea!

[tonyjuliano]

On 6/22/2021 at 6:59 PM, Streetwise said:

love the tannins, but the water is tea!

This is why I never use wood in my Walstadt setups. It’s enough “tea” for me with just the dirt floor.

But, just my personal preference.

[Streetwise]

I like the wood for grazing, but there is no singular formula. Cheers!

[Mmiller2001]

On 6/22/2021 at 4:14 PM, tonyjuliano said:

@Mmiller2001 - yes, you have beautifully lush tanks, bursting with plants of many colors and texture. 

But do you really attribute this to frequent water changes?

I’m much more inclined to think that it’s due to the tremendous amount of effort and other maintenance that you perform, eg. plant trimming and management, testing and resulting fertilizer regimen, etc.

Yes, they are impressive, but some people desire a more “natural” environment. 

I mean no offense, the effort required to pull this off is apparent, and it’s obvious that the results you achieve are your goal.

But it’s not everyone’s.

These are not my tanks, and water changes are a step on a ladder to these types of tanks. These are the tanks I strive to have, and having too few plants is a novices mistake. Water changes allow you to target nutrient ppm and are a fundamental learned by the best in the business.  A planted tank, at peak performance, is a tank with regular water changes. I imagine plant growth is the natural process in tanks like these, and aesthetics is secondary. And I 100% attribute my plant growth, and these illustrated, that water changes are the key factor in refreshing Calcium: Magnesium and targeted nutrient ppm. Water changes and maintenance go hand in hand, so please, try not to devaluate their relevance. 

I imagine, that natural environments are refreshed on orders of 100 times a day by natural processes, I.E. rain or river flow ect..

Outside of the harshest conditions, or Blackwater environments (where plants are mostly void), obviously certain rivers are blackwater with plants, where water is changes in the 1000's of gallons a day, makes your point invalid. So, yeah, water changes are perfectly "natural".

What effort is required to change water. Minimal. 

My answer, was never for anyone other than @Grizzly and at what point do you do water changes. It's when you want to target specific goals and have a tank better than most people. Because water changes allow you to predict ppm and parameters that everyone else is guessing at. A tank, that's calculated, is a tank that can be controlled. These people, commented above, are incapable of making anything more than a general adjustment, and know nothing about specific quantities in an aquarium. 

When a problem occurs, what is the fist thing people recommend....Water Change... so.............yeah...think long and hard about water changes.....water changes are long term stability. I won't comment any further. Your tank or their tank is exactly the amount of effort put into it. 

By these people "I mean" Edited to not be banned!

Edited June 22, 2021 by Mmiller2001

[tonyjuliano]

On 6/22/2021 at 7:13 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

A planted tank, at peak performance, is a tank with regular water changes.

What constitutes “peak performance” is a personal opinion, not a fact.

On 6/22/2021 at 7:13 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

What effort is required to change water. Minimal. 

I have better things to do with my time, especially when the effort does not provide any desired result - for me, personally, but for others it seems too.

On 6/22/2021 at 7:13 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

A tank, that's calculated, is a tank that can be controlled.

Which is exactly what I meant by a more “natural approach”, excessive control, especially when it comes to plants, doesn’t appeal to me. Again, me personally.

On 6/22/2021 at 7:13 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

When a problem occurs, what is the fist thing people recommend....Water Change

Some people do. But some people repeat anything they’ve heard too, without any imperial evidence.  I believe it’s better to try to ascertain the true root cause of any issue before taking blanket actions.

On 6/22/2021 at 7:13 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Your tank or their tank is exactly the amount of effort put into it. 

No.. my tank, and others, is exactly what we want it to be, otherwise we would do something different.

[Streetwise]

I seem to be able to keep healthy tanks. Most of my maintenance involves removing floating plants.

[laritheloud]

On 6/22/2021 at 7:13 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

These are not my tanks, and water changes are a step on a ladder to these types of tanks. These are the tanks I strive to have, and having too few plants is a novices mistake. Water changes allow you to target nutrient ppm and are a fundamental learned by the best in the business.  A planted tank, at peak performance, is a tank with regular water changes. I imagine plant growth is the natural process in tanks like these, and aesthetics is secondary. And I 100% attribute my plant growth, and these illustrated, that water changes are the key factor in refreshing Calcium: Magnesium and targeted nutrient ppm. Water changes and maintenance go hand in hand, so please, try not to devaluate their relevance. 

I imagine, that natural environments are refreshed on orders of 100 times a day by natural processes, I.E. rain or river flow ect..

Outside of the harshest conditions, or Blackwater environments (where plants are mostly void), obviously certain rivers are blackwater with plants, where water is changes in the 1000's of gallons a day, makes your point invalid. So, yeah, water changes are perfectly "natural".

What effort is required to change water. Minimal. 

My answer, was never for anyone other than @Grizzly and at what point do you do water changes. It's when you want to target specific goals and have a tank better than most people. Because water changes allow you to predict ppm and parameters that everyone else is guessing at. A tank, that's calculated, is a tank that can be controlled. These people, commented above, are incapable of making anything more than a general adjustment, and know nothing about specific quantities in an aquarium. 

When a problem occurs, what is the fist thing people recommend....Water Change... so.............yeah...think long and hard about water changes.....water changes are long term stability. I won't comment any further. Your tank or their tank is exactly the amount of effort put into it. 

By these people "I mean" Edited to not be banned!

I agree that those dutch aquascaped planted tanks are truly stunning works of art. I couldn't even begin to strive to have a tank that looks like that, and it's probably partly because I'm worried about the optimal health of my fish and inverts over the health and beauty of my plants. I do water changes every week because I want the glass to look nice and I want to clear debris, but I don't necessarily have to do water changes according to my tank parameters. A natural look is a valid and equally lovely way to run a tank. We're not in a contest on these forums to run the best/most artistic/most flawless growth and professionally-pruned aquascape, or, heavens, I'd be a total loser here. 🤣

It's probably better to say 'to each his own.' It's valid to do water changes to control the nutrient levels in your tank and dose according to EI, and it was a good answer to the top level question. It's equally valid for people to take a more natural approach and enjoy their living ecosystem.

[Gideyon]

On 6/22/2021 at 7:35 PM, tonyjuliano said:

I have better things to do with my tim

I actually enjoy water changes. But I don't have the time to do it regularly. That's why I my 10 gallon just has 1 betta and no other living thing other than marimo balls.  Less bioload, less water changes.    

 

[Mmiller2001]

On 6/22/2021 at 5:42 PM, laritheloud said:

I agree that those dutch aquascaped planted tanks are truly stunning works of art. I couldn't even begin to strive to have a tank that looks like that, and it's probably partly because I'm worried about the optimal health of my fish and inverts over the health and beauty of my plants. I do water changes every week because I want the glass to look nice and I want to clear debris, but I don't necessarily have to do water changes according to my tank parameters. A natural look is a valid and equally lovely way to run a tank. We're not in a contest on these forums to run the best/most artistic/most flawless growth and professionally-pruned aquascape, or, heavens, I'd be a total loser here. 🤣

It's probably better to say 'to each his own.' It's valid to do water changes to control the nutrient levels in your tank and dose according to EI, and it was a good answer to the top level question. It's equally valid for people to take a more natural approach and enjoy their living ecosystem.

Remove design, what's left, the absolute peak performance of healthy plants. And that's water changes designed to target specifics and health over all.

[Brandy]

This is not the place for this debate. Opinions are all valid. Stop. Or I will lock the thread, and further consequences will ensue.

[Brandy]

Pardon me. RESPECTFUL OPINIONS ARE ALL VALID. 

• First and foremost, be kind and helpful to one another on the forum.

[tonyjuliano]

On 6/22/2021 at 7:48 PM, Brandy said:

This is not the place for this debate. Opinions are all valid. Stop. Or I will lock the thread, and further consequences will ensue.

OMG…

Yes, this forum is not a place for debate, it seems.  The question of civility regarding said debate, is never considered, which is silly, IMO.

In fairness to all involved in this “discussion”, NOBODY has been aggressive or discourteous or “unkind” to anyone else.

Stifling debate means that no one has the opportunity to learn anything.  

There are a lot of novices here, and they are being done a constant disservice by frequent overreach of misplaced “authority”, IMO.

Edited June 23, 2021 by tonyjuliano

[Brandy]

On 6/22/2021 at 4:58 PM, tonyjuliano said:

OMG…

Yes, this forum is not a place for debate, it seems.  The questions of civility is never considered, which is silly, IMO.

In fairness to all involved in this “discussion”, NOBODY has been aggressive or discourteous or “unkind” to anyone else.

Stifling debate means that no one has the opportunity to learn anything.  

There are a lot of novices here, and they are being done a constant disservice frequent overreach of misplaced “authority”, IMO.

This is not the place for THIS debate. When we devolve into bickering and challenging each other to back things up or "take this quote to any other forum" we have strayed from the point of THIS FORUM.  If you want to have bickering fights, do it somewhere else, the whole internet is available to oblige you.

[Mmiller2001]

I have to apologize. Once again, I let myself get the better of me. I apologize to any that I may offended. I do enjoy this forum and whish to contribute, but I think that's best done through my journal.

Going forward, I will no longer comment and only post on my journal. And my journal consist of trying to emulate these 2 people.

https://www.plantedtank.net/threads/greggz-120g-rainbow-fish-tank-scapecrunch-interview-1-18-2021.1020497/

and

https://www.plantedtank.net/threads/120-gal-dutchy-freestyle-now-with-35-less-water-volume.1117642/

I hope many will find these 2 people as inspiring as I do.

 

 

[Streetwise]

We want this forum to be welcoming and inclusive. It is always useful to provide context for your posts.

I specialize in organic soil tanks, and I use my signature to provide context.

There are so many cool ways to enjoy this hobby!

[tonyjuliano]

On 6/22/2021 at 7:45 PM, Gideyon said:

I actually enjoy water changes. But I don't have the time to do it regularly. That's why I my 10 gallon just has 1 betta and no other living thing other than marimo balls.  Less bioload, less water changes.    

 

I applaud that you recognize this, and have taken the approach that best suits you and the well being of those you have chosen to care for.

[Brandy]

There are lots of options in this hobby, and I like everyone to have lots of opinions to choose from, including yours @Mmiller2001. I do want to keep space for everyone else's voice to be heard.

It is probably best for all of us to simply state what we do and how that has worked out for us rather than directly trying to dispute others. That way new people can decide how their own practice of the hobby fits in.

Streetwise has his own style of tanks, and they look very differnt from the tanks Mmiller posted. Neither are "wrong" they are just different ways of enjoying this hobby, and if a kid wants bubble gum pink gravel, that is ok too--so long as they understand how to keep the fish alive and healthy. If I am a new person, and I love the look of dutch tanks I really want to follow Mmiller and he is going to have the best advice for me. If I want a more natural slice of nature complete with algae, mulm, and tannins, Streetwise will have advice I can best understand and relate to. 

As tonyjuliano points out, knowing yourself is the most important thing in this hobby, and there is no one right way to enjoy fish...I quite like them battered and fried at times myself!

[Fish Folk]

For the most part, I change water for some tanks in small amounts several times a week; for others 30% weekly, and for some 50% bi-weekly. Just a few are almost never changed. I think that much has to do with what I want to happen in my tanks. Since I am fascinated with breeding fish, I make my water changing decisions based upon how it will trigger fish to spawn, or accelerate growth for fry. I tend to dose pretty freely with plant fertilizers when I water change, because it does take out good nutrients from the water column. With Discus, I find that they have sensitive slime coats that tend to get infected if the water isn't changed out. However, I think that others who've kept Discus have other experiences and probably have gotten away with much less water changing. Changing with slightly cooler water sometimes triggers spawning -- perhaps a premonition of a cool rain storm. I personally love hearing / reading / learning about the different approaches of everyone. I love the way that @Streetwise sets up those tanks. I don't know when I'll get up the courage to try it, but it's impressive! I love tannins, and remember Scott Fellman (from Tannin Aquatics) telling our Fish Club about breeding neon tetras in a blackwater setup with virtually no feeding whatsoever, because there was so much life in there for them to nibble on. I also adore the Dutch Aquascapes -- and the high tech setups Green Aqua does. It's a totally different philosophy altogether, but it's fascinating. I appreciate watching @Dean’s Fishroom keep his tidy chef's kitchen of a fishroom, and absolutely loved his presentation to our Fish Club about setting up his breeding system. Lots of different philosophies on water represented. All good.

 

Edited June 23, 2021 by Fish Folk

[Isaac M]

Hello @Grizzly, beautiful tank! As for your question on water changes, I would look into old tank syndrome. I have attached a video aquarium co-op has made on this topic below:

The video will explain it much better and faster than I can type it here. But there is more going on in the aquarium that just nitrates. Trace elements, kH (dropping kH and pH due to nitrogen cycle), gH(possible increase from topping off), stocking level and more should be taken into account. I would make sure to test your tap water so you know what your base levels are so you can compare them to your aquarium (nitrate, tds, kh, and gh at the minimum). You can definitely go months and even forever without water changes. For example, Ocean’s Aquarium store in San Francisco, California never does water changes. I believe they use deep sand beds and plants to accomplish this, I will attach the video below:

For the saltwater side, you can even look up the Triton method. 

As for my personal experience, all my freshwater aquariums are set up to be minimal maintenance, including water changes and scraping glass. For example, my 40 gallon breeder below uses organic soil to grow crypts and dwarf aquarium lillies. Then I have pothos and areca palm above to further remove nutrients from the water. The sterbai corydoras are constantly spawning in there and I do a water change every 2 months or so. I clean the front glass panel once a month and it is usually minimal. It is all about balance and stability to achieve aquariums like this. 

I hope that helps!