Calling a SOS need HELP with Sick baby BN Pleco

[Colu]

It's the fluid buildup that's causing the pineconing of the scales your seeing the combination of salt kanaplex and metroplex have been the most effective treatment I have found for Dropsy even then it's a 50/50  chance of recovery at best @MollyMomma

 

[Hobbit]

It’s weird to me that the pine coming is happening all over the fish, not just around his belly. Is that unusual?

[Torrey]

On 2/6/2022 at 10:05 PM, Hobbit said:

It’s weird to me that the pine coming is happening all over the fish, not just around his belly. Is that unusual?

I have seen it before, but with less activity from the fish and only for ~16 hours.

I don't find any articles on a genetic to create lifted scales, outside of a super fancy goldfish.

The swelling of the abdomen all the way to the tail combined with the pinecone appearance of all the scales is not a typical presentation until dropsy gets really bad.

But the fish is eating and acting mostly normal??

I wonder if it is the kidneys, trying to regain homeostasis after the multiple med treatments?

[MollyMomma]

He is eating like a pig! Swimming fine, no abnormal behavior, even mating! He gets jumpy if anyone (or the cat) gets up & close too quickly to the tank. I've heard/read so much about dropsy & never have experienced it, so I had no idea what this was, because the photos I've seen with dropsy were all fish with huge extended abdomens, severe pineconing, swimming issues.

He does have a new symptom though, there was a red spot On his side, now there's a white area and a few scales missing- that's how the pleco's fungus started 1 year ago though, white & red spots. So I'm continuing a 2cd round of kanaplex.

I'm glad I did not move these fish back into the main tank/or other tanks because whatever this is (internal/external) keeps rearing it's ugly head & I don't want to infect my other 3 tanks. So these 5 fish may just have to live in this tank together for an extended period. 

I only expected to have to QT them for a few months, and here we are months & months later, 1 year of total sick time.One fish looks better than another worse. It's like it takes turns. 

All in all... This has wiped out like several corydoras, 9 or more Ottocinculus, I've lost count.. But all red spots, white pstches, white fungus symptoms. And only in THIS tank or to fish whom were exposed to this tank.

I have 3 other tanks running & rarely see illness, lots of fry so I might have a few turn up dead. I might see a scrape or something here or there, but it's weird. 

[Hobbit]

It really is weird. If there are any PhD students lurking on the forum looking for interesting fish diseases to study, PM @MollyMomma!

[MollyMomma]

He is not getting better.. Or worse. He just looks the same.

I made the Epsom salt bath/dip a few days ago per Torrey's instructions on the previous page.

He is now in a separate container, with added aquarium salt only ~ 1 Teaspoon per gallon.

I've been doing a lot of reading & every website says to put the fish to sleep because it's chance of survival is so slim.

Should I? I have clove oil on hand for emergencies. I've used it twice- and hated doing it both times 😔 but if it's that bad, with internal swelling, Would it be kinder?

 

[Colu]

On 2/16/2022 at 3:28 PM, MollyMomma said:

He is not getting better.. Or worse. He just looks the same.

I made the Epsom salt bath/dip a few days ago per Torrey's instructions on the previous page.

He is now in a separate container, with added aquarium salt only ~ 1 Teaspoon per gallon.

I've been doing a lot of reading & every website says to put the fish to sleep because it's chance of survival is so slim.

Should I? I have clove oil on hand for emergencies. I've used it twice- and hated doing it both times 😔 but if it's that bad, with internal swelling, Would it be kinder?

 

 the combined treatment of salt kanaplex and metroplex hasn't worked  his chances of recovery are slim if you think he's suffering you could use clove oil to humanly euthanize him that a decision only you can make you will no when it's time to let him Go

[Hobbit]

@MollyMomma that’s totally up to you. If I were in your shoes, I would go off the fish’s behavior. If he’s struggling to swim or eat or stay upright, then I may euthanize him, but if he looks like a happy-go-lucky fish, I would let him be. I would just try not to let him breed, since it sounds like he got this from his dad. Whatever you decide, we support you. ❤️

[MollyMomma]

Okay, Thanks guys. I think ill keep him isolated for a little longer and just monitor him then. Like I said, he seems okay, behavior is normal, eating healthy. And if he takes a turn for the worst then I'll put him to sleep. I guess I'll just watch him for now though.

[Torrey]

On 2/16/2022 at 12:18 PM, MollyMomma said:

Okay, Thanks guys. I think ill keep him isolated for a little longer and just monitor him then. Like I said, he seems okay, behavior is normal, eating healthy. And if he takes a turn for the worst then I'll put him to sleep. I guess I'll just watch him for now though.

I have had several bettas who were not breeding worthy due to bloat happening regularly. 

They lived a lot longer than I anticipated, I just kept them in their own tanks with deeper substrate and lower water levels to make their lives easier. 

If we slow down, and let go of our own fears so we can just listen to the fish (or any other pet), they communicate what they need pretty clearly. I am confident that if you are willing to listen, he'll let you know when he is ready.

If you give him permission to do what he needs, stay or go as *he* needs, he may make the decision for you and pass in the night after a day of really engaging with you. Mostly, just trust your inner self that takes the time to listen. 

[MollyMomma]

Torrey, that's too bad! But I've learned that these fish are hardy, and definitely have surprised me. Usually when they're close to death, you call tell, like what you said, they exhibit behavior differently, and we listen, Thank you.

@Colu I wanted to show you a photo I JUST took a few minutes ago, while feeding. The Red BN is starting to heal up. Her Dorsal fin was completely gone, and you helped me quite a bit with meds & dosing so I wanted to share an update:

She still has a lot of scar tissue, but the holes, erosion, fin & tail rot, and white spots/patches have improved dramatically:

Sorry 2cd photo has a weird reflection.

[Hobbit]

Wow! Your pleco looks amazing! She’s come so far! 😍😍😍

[Colu]

She improved a lot  with any luck she will be 100% soon

[MollyMomma]

How can fish keepers tell 100% if it is Dropsy? I've had this orange male molly in Quarantine, I think for about 1 week now. 

I check parameters daily, replenish fresh water, add aquarium salt. It's heated also. I added duckweed for cover, and keep a towel over top to keep it darker.

He seems fine. Eating, pooping, I'm not seeing any bloating. His scales just seem thicker, blockier, and not smooth compared to his female companions. 

Are there any other reason for scale lifting? Like parasites or some type of abnormality?

Edited February 21, 2022 by MollyMomma
Add photos

[Torrey]

On 2/21/2022 at 10:35 AM, MollyMomma said:

How can fish keepers tell 100% if it is Dropsy? I've had this orange male molly in Quarantine, I think for about 1 week now. 

I check parameters daily, replenish fresh water, add aquarium salt. It's heated also. I added duckweed for cover, and keep a towel over top to keep it darker.

He seems fine. Eating, pooping, I'm not seeing any bloating. His scales just seem thicker, blockier, and not smooth compared to his female companions. 

Are there any other reason for scale lifting? Like parasites or some type of abnormality?

Molly, it looks like you may have a platy with a Bb gene? I'm not sure if platies have the mutation to make a "bubble scale" like the pearlscale goldfish or angelfish. 

I don't know how to locate the information in an accessible file, I keep finding pdf of research, but the files are too big for my old phone. 

@Colu or @Biotope Biologist do either of you know?

[Colu]

On 2/22/2022 at 5:03 AM, Torrey said:

Molly, it looks like you may have a platy with a Bb gene? I'm not sure if platies have the mutation to make a "bubble scale" like the pearlscale goldfish or angelfish. 

I don't know how to locate the information in an accessible file, I keep finding pdf of research, but the files are too big for my old phone. 

@Colu or @Biotope Biologist do either of you know?

That is a Molly I haven't herd of the BB gene if it was genetic then it would have had it from birth it wouldn't have developed it later in life

[MollyMomma]

No he wasn't born with it, as he started maturing his scales looked more broader than the females, then a few weeks ago I looked in the tank & he looked "puffed up."

I went back in my fish tank journal to check for info.

This tank was pretty bare- just a little sand because it was intended to be used as a short term QT, but I figured they'd be in here a long time so I added:

-1 sandwhich sized bag of leftover sand (Caribsea super naturals)

- 3? LBs of gravel

- some floating plants from my 5g grow out. Duckweed, water lettuce, frogbit.

THe scales started lifting AFTER the treatment of API fin & body cure was completed.

And after adding plants & Gravel.

BUT the pleco's condition has improved, and he got worse. That's why I was wondering if maybe it was an internal parasite.

[Biotope Biologist]

That’s a chunky boy but I don’t see anything that screams he is unhealthy or diseased.

dropsy is fairly obvious with the scales physically lifting off the body. There is a reason it has the nickname “pinecone disease.”

 

Also that’s terrific news on the pleco!

[MollyMomma]

On 2/22/2022 at 2:03 PM, Biotope Biologist said:

That’s a chunky boy but I don’t see anything that screams he is unhealthy or diseased.

dropsy is fairly obvious with the scales physically lifting off the body. There is a reason it has the nickname “pinecone disease.”

 

Also that’s terrific news on the pleco!

@Biotope Biologist

This is what he looked like 1 week ago:

In the 2cd photo, there is a female below him, when the two fish are compared his scales look very different.

[Biotope Biologist]

Ah yes they are raised but again I have never seen dropsy look so… mild. Usually the skin under the scales is pink-red and clearly agitated which again I don’t see. I’d monitor the situation and if you notice a decline in health get some dropsy medication. They look very healthy though.

 

I hesitate to say such things, because I only know surface level information on mollies. But, in my job every once in a while I see fish and skates with scales like this. Very thick some even develop spines on the scale itself. I believe it’s a genetic mutation but I do not know how widespread this mutation is amongst species.

 

perhaps someone who is an avid breeder of livebearers could drop in with some insight into this peculiarity 

[MollyMomma]

On 2/22/2022 at 3:56 PM, Biotope Biologist said:

Ah yes they are raised but again I have never seen dropsy look so… mild. Usually the skin under the scales is pink-red and clearly agitated which again I don’t see. I’d monitor the situation and if you notice a decline in health get some dropsy medication. They look very healthy though.

 

I hesitate to say such things, because I only know surface level information on mollies. But, in my job every once in a while I see fish and skates with scales like this. Very thick some even develop spines on the scale itself. I believe it’s a genetic mutation but I do not know how widespread this mutation is amongst species.

 

perhaps someone who is an avid breeder of livebearers could drop in with some insight into this peculiarity 

Thank you very much for the info. I posted it on here because it looked SO odd, there was this very large, short finned, bright orange molly who sired him. He had blocker looking scales also but not as prominent as this. Out of all the mollies I've bred, I've only seen it twice, out of hundreds in the past two years. 

But, this tank has literally been "ill" for 12 months, just one ailment after another (mainly bacterial + fungal) alongside multiple medications. 

He does look a bit better since soaking in the saltwater solution for the past week, but just to cover all my bases I wanted to ask my fellow fish-keepers.

[Torrey]

On 2/22/2022 at 3:03 PM, MollyMomma said:

Thank you very much for the info. I posted it on here because it looked SO odd, there was this very large, short finned, bright orange molly who sired him. He had blocker looking scales also but not as prominent as this. Out of all the mollies I've bred, I've only seen it twice, out of hundreds in the past two years. 

But, this tank has literally been "ill" for 12 months, just one ailment after another (mainly bacterial + fungal) alongside multiple medications. 

He does look a bit better since soaking in the saltwater solution for the past week, but just to cover all my bases I wanted to ask my fellow fish-keepers.

If his sire also had blocky looking scales, and there are like the sires... but more so...

AND

They didn't look different until puberty.... is there any chance his mom was out of the same lineage as his dad?

Because what you are describing would be a sex-linked trait.

@Biotope Biologist, my memory says the blocky (or some circles say bubble, or pearled) was the result of incomplete dominance?

Of course, my memory can also be flawed, because stroke. Is it possible to have a sex linked, incomplete dominance genotype?

And what would the phenotype look like?

[Mollies are not something I have bred since 1978.... I am pulling on old memories]

[MollyMomma]

On 2/23/2022 at 5:12 AM, Torrey said:

If his sire also had blocky looking scales, and there are like the sires... but more so...

AND

They didn't look different until puberty.... is there any chance his mom was out of the same lineage as his dad?

Because what you are describing would be a sex-linked trait.

@Biotope Biologist, my memory says the blocky (or some circles say bubble, or pearled) was the result of incomplete dominance?

Of course, my memory can also be flawed, because stroke. Is it possible to have a sex linked, incomplete dominance genotype?

And what would the phenotype look like?

[Mollies are not something I have bred since 1978.... I am pulling on old memories]

Oh that's interesting!! So I did buy the breeding pair at the same store BUT from different tanks at different times.

I looked for over 6 months for the bright yellow/orange. They are hard to find up here in New England. 

Then I kept the best colored females, put them in a separate tank, and traded the males back to my LFS.

I keep females mostly now because I like how they interact, and they stay smaller. Males are aggressive. 

This QT was originally a 29g. I dropped 3 bright yellow fry in there to grow out. Then the tank broke out in fungus & I was afraid to move them back. One of them just happened to grow up & be  male.

But so his weird scales could be a product of line breeding?

[Torrey]

On 2/23/2022 at 8:47 AM, MollyMomma said:

Oh that's interesting!! So I did buy the breeding pair at the same store BUT from different tanks at different times.

I looked for over 6 months for the bright yellow/orange. They are hard to find up here in New England. 

Then I kept the best colored females, put them in a separate tank, and traded the males back to my LFS.

I keep females mostly now because I like how they interact, and they stay smaller. Males are aggressive. 

This QT was originally a 29g. I dropped 3 bright yellow fry in there to grow out. Then the tank broke out in fungus & I was afraid to move them back. One of them just happened to grow up & be  male.

But so his weird scales could be a product of line breeding?

It is definitely worth considering it as a possibility. I don't know a Gianne equivalent for platies, maybe @Zenzo knows?

 

I don't know if the platy has been gene coded yet, or if older breeders have seen this before. For pets that have been part of the industry for over 50 years, there's an awful lot we just don't know yet. 

[MollyMomma]

You guys think it's okay to put him back in the tank now? He's been in his own separate QT box for a while.