Maintaining a stable pH

[CalmedByFish]

26 minutes ago, Mmiller2001 said:

 my pH swings from 7.3 to 5.9 every single day

Just clarifying: That swing is happening in a single tank? (Instead of multiple tanks that each has its own steady pH.)

[Mmiller2001]

13 minutes ago, tonyjuliano said:

 

Okay...

So it appears that this isn’t even a serious (or rational) discussion.

I don’t even know how to respond the the quote above.

It's very rational. You stated that having a KH below 3 is going to have serious consequences. You've based this notion on decades old information passed downed through the internet and constantly quoted as fact, but it isn't true. I and thousands of aquarists have a KH below 3 and have no problems..at all. The  notion that fluctuating pH kills fish is false. This horse has been beaten to death and proven over and over. It's not your fault, it's just a negative of the internet. Information doesn't get updated regularly. There's new science, with plenty of experimentation that disprove these old notions.

[Mmiller2001]

5 minutes ago, CalmedByFish said:

Just clarifying: That swing is happening in a single tank? (Instead of multiple tanks that each has its own steady pH.)

This is my swing in a 75 and 40 gallon tank. That I cause on purpose. These tanks both have a 1.5KH. I'm thinking about lowering my KH to 1. 

[DShelton]

The pH swing in that tank is likely due to injected CO2. Achieving the target concentration of CO2 usually results in a swing of pH of between 1 and 1.5 units, depending on dKH.

 

 

[Emika_B]

Just to add another layer - substrate may also be a factor in KH readings.  Some are called ‘buffering’ substrate.  For a while I was doing everything I could to bump my KH from 1 degree to at least 4 - removed drift wood, added aragonite, etc.  I got maybe 2 degrees more KH and it’s held steady at 3-4.  My pH has held steady at 8.2.  I’m using Fluval Stratum as a substrate and was told it may be the reason I’m not getting any real increase in KH.  *shrug*  I’ve stopped chasing KH but do keep an eye on my parameters and how my fish are behaving.

[tonyjuliano]

1 hour ago, Mmiller2001 said:

The  notion that fluctuating pH kills fish is false.

Okay...  You’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but it’s not “internet theory”, just science.  Biology 101.

Good luck to you, and I mean that sincerely.

Edited May 13, 2021 by tonyjuliano

[BaRanchik]

8 hours ago, CalmedByFish said:

I still don't really understand the KH stuff above. (I'm new to doing this well.) 

When I recently asked a similar question, forum members told me that fish can adjust to a non-ideal pH much better than they can handle fluctuations, and said to not "chase" pH. So I stopped, letting my pH stay at the 7.8-8.0 that it is out of the tap. So far, so good. The only species we both have is snails, but I can at least tell you the snails are fine with it.

For the future, it was also suggested that I stick with choosing animals that are good with a higher pH, so I don't have to worry about it. I guess that would also apply to plant choices. 

To add to this, my sister owns a betta for a few months now and it's doing fine in close to 8 pH (tap water here is super hard and high pH).

[tonyjuliano]

Just for clarification.  I’m not advocating anyone “chase” a certain level of KH.  To work on manipulating the carbonate hardness level to some fine degree isn’t necessary.

Quite the opposite.

In fact, to attain a zero level of KH, would require some effort.  This simply does nit happen naturally, in any body of water on earth.

[DShelton]

47 minutes ago, Emika_B said:

Just to add another layer - substrate may also be a factor in KH readings.  Some are called ‘buffering’ substrate.  For a while I was doing everything I could to bump my KH from 1 degree to at least 4 - removed drift wood, added aragonite, etc.  I got maybe 2 degrees more KH and it’s held steady at 3-4.  My pH has held steady at 8.2.  I’m using Fluval Stratum as a substrate and was told it may be the reason I’m not getting any real increase in KH.  *shrug*  I’ve stopped chasing KH but do keep an eye on my parameters and how my fish are behaving.

The active (Dennerle, Fluva, ADA, etc.) soils will definitely affect pH. My experience with stratum starting with pH 8.2 tap water, 7 dKH, and 161 ppm TDS, the pH was pulled down to to ~6.4. They were mostly engineered for Caradina shrimp.

 

[tonyjuliano]

1 minute ago, DShelton said:

They were mostly engineered for Caradina shrimp.

 

Yes, in fact we used to call them “shrimp soil”.

[DShelton]

5 hours ago, Eric R said:

I thought that this was an interesting table that shows the relationship between the amount of hydrogen and hydroxide ions in water and its pH. [Source]

 

Yup, pH is defined as the -log[H3O+] , and there is another value called pOH which is calculated the same way for [OH-] concentration.  pH  + pOH = 14 for any given solution.

the [] represent concentration in mol/L, and if you notice when looking at the chart, as [H3O+] goes up, the [OH-] goes down by the same amount. These equations are the basis for buffered solutions, but that is quite the rabbit hole. I could make another thread if anyone is actually interested.

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by DShelton
correct they/their

[tonyjuliano]

40 minutes ago, DShelton said:

I could make another thread if anyone is actually interested.

 

Interested!
 

But, of course, I’m a science nerd.

[Mmiller2001]

10 minutes ago, tonyjuliano said:

Interested!
 

But, of course, I’m a science nerd.

Here's some good reads for you.

This one covers another falsehood that is so often used. Turns out, nitrification still happens in low pH. But what's really cool, is the absolutely jaw dropping, stunning tanks at the bottom of the article. Many at 1 and 0 KH.

https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/ph-kh-gh-tds/is-low-ph-in-tanks-due-to-aquasoils-softwater-a-concern

This one explains why your wrong about KH and how aquarists should think about pH.

https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/ph-kh-gh-tds/ph-explained

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

[tonyjuliano]

18 minutes ago, Mmiller2001 said:

Here's some good reads for you.

Gee thanks...

2 links from the same “blog” written by someone with no professional credentials. To think, early on, you kind of railed against “internet disinformation”.
 

And...

Nothing in there contradicts my earlier statement about the importance of KH for buffering.  In fact, he mentions - more than once - about the importance of KH stability (although I totally disagree with his thoughts on the unimportance of PH stability).

It’s kind of hard to have KH stability when there is KH at all.

In the end, you have your opinions, and I have mine, nothing I see there supports your postulations.

Most of what I’ve seen favors plant propagation, over fish health, in my opinion.

”Pretty” tanks crash all the time, mostly due to the effort required for constant manipulation.  Those based on natural methods usually stand the test of time. 

[Isaac M]

 

@tonyjuliano @Mmiller2001 I was reading through your discussion and I think the both of you actually agree more than you disagree. I think the both of you are correct, aquariums with low kH and reducing pH with CO2 can definitely be kept successfully. But as mentioned, it does require more monitoring and expertise to do well and sustainably. Some people enjoy all this work and some people do not. But as also mentioned, it is also not necessary. Pretty tanks can be found using all different types of aquarium keeping philosophies. That is the beauty of it. There is something for everyone and we should not look down to others who have a different philosophy. The science backs both of your statements. pH and kH swings in extremes are not good for your fish typically but are fine within reason. However, it is my personal belief that for a beginner aquarist, we should advocate for the safer approach and avoid those extremes. 

@Ponyoryx my pH is around 8.0 or higher. 7.6 may be the lowest I have ever tested it. I have successfully grown many plants in this water. Including an aquarium full of mostly crypts. I have had many aquatic plants flower as well. From my experience, I do not think your pH is a problem. If you enjoy the catappa leaves, by all means use them. There are plenty of benefits to them. As for your crypts, crypts seem to like consistency/ stability. Changes seem to always cause them to melt, even if they are established in your aquarium. I have melted my established crypts before simply with dosing a liquid fertilizer which I had never done in that aquarium before. They always seem to come back though. The most important thing is to have the root system. The leaves will come back eventually if the roots are healthy and fed. 

[Cory]

Warnings will be issued next time users would like to fight for who is more right. I believe the information the original poster was seeking has been conveyed.