How does Prime work?

[Hobbit]

I’m starting this thread to continue a discussion from here because we were getting off topic from the original post, but I’m legitimately curious.

I know a lot of people have had issues with using Prime, understanding what it actually does with ammonia, and how it affects their cycle, so I thought this might be a good thread to have around for reference.

Some people think Seachem Prime can’t detoxify ammonia. It claims to detoxify ammonia, so I’m curious why some people think it can’t.

Just remember we are NOT allowed to talk trash about other companies, so let’s keep this discussion focused on what Prime is doing in our aquariums.

[Hobbit]

@DShelton do you care to elaborate on this?

Quote

It is chemically impossible for that to happen, prime is a reducing agent (that is how it dechlorinates). The only way to make ammonia non-toxic, beyond taking it out of the aquarium is to oxidize it to nitrite and then to nitrate. There is nothing in prime that can do that.

How do you know there’s nothing in prime that can detoxify ammonia? Why is this chemically impossible? Keep in mind I’m a former bio and chem teacher, so feel free to give me the long answer. 😉 

[DShelton]

Thank you @Hobbit, I was about to suggest we take the conversation out of @mgudyka's thread.

[RockMongler]

@DShelton

Do you have a list of all the ingredients in Seachem Prime?  I'd love to see a list of them.  

Of course, you don't (or if you do, you are legally unable to tell us because it has a bunch of proprietary stuff even on the MSDS).  There are more chemicals in a dechlorinator like Prime, than simply something that oxidizes chlorine/chloramine like your common sodium thiosulfate. 

I suspect they have buffering agents in there, which can help keep the pH in a place where ammonia stays ammonium, and therefore, less harmful to fish.  That alone would, at least to a layman, "detoxify" the ammonia long enough for our BB to do its job.  Most also probably have an acid like ETDA that helps with unwanted metals in the water column.  

One thing I was looking at when figuring out exactly what is in Seachem Prime was this blog post:  http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/2010/09/discussiong-about-seachem-prime-and.html

It certainly does something (and quantifying that is hard), but it is not just a dechlorinator.

[Solidus1833]

2 minutes ago, RockMongler said:

@DShelton

Do you have a list of all the ingredients in Seachem Prime?  I'd love to see a list of them.  

Of course, you don't (or if you do, you are legally unable to tell us because it has a bunch of proprietary stuff even on the MSDS).  There are more chemicals in a dechlorinator like Prime, than simply something that oxidizes chlorine/chloramine like your common sodium thiosulfate. 

I suspect they have buffering agents in there, which can help keep the pH in a place where ammonia stays ammonium, and therefore, less harmful to fish.  That alone would, at least to a layman, "detoxify" the ammonia long enough for our BB to do its job.  Most also probably have an acid like ETDA that helps with unwanted metals in the water column.  

One thing I was looking at when figuring out exactly what is in Seachem Prime was this blog post:  http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/2010/09/discussiong-about-seachem-prime-and.html

It certainly does something (and quantifying that is hard), but it is not just a dechlorinator.

you got me wondering so I went and grabbed my bottle of Prime. As you say they don't list their ingredients, all it does say is : Contains complexed hydrosulfite salts. So not 'just' salts, there is something else like you theorized. 

Whelp, all I know is it did work for me. When I had an ammonia spike after the Texas Freeze, I dosed Prime and my fish did not show any signs of distress or burns while my tank cycled 2.0ppm Ammonia out of the aquarium over two days. 

Otherwise I guess its black magic hehe. 

[laritheloud]

https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/5-5-3-1-ammonia-detoxifying/ Is this the source @DShelton might be talking about? Because I'm having trouble parsing the methods and the reasoning for these conclusions. Particularly, I'm having trouble understanding why they added hydrogen peroxide to their water for this experiment:

 

Quote

 

Then several products which claim to detoxify or neutralize ammonia were purchased. A series of bottles were filled with the ammonia water and a dosage of five times the recommended level of “detoxifier” was then added. One bottle, the “control” had nothing added. There were three bottles used for each product.

All conditioners are reducing agents which react with strong oxidizing agents such as sodium hypochlorite. The yellow alert dot of the Seachem test using an oxidizing agent in the salicylate chemistry. So hydrogen peroxide was added to neutralize the reducing agent in the various conditioners.

 

Wouldn't that mess with the results, if they're adding hydrogen peroxide along with prime and the other water conditioning agents?

[Solidus1833]

Just now, laritheloud said:

https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/5-5-3-1-ammonia-detoxifying/ Is this the source @DShelton might be talking about? Because I'm having trouble parsing the methods and the reasoning for these conclusions. Particularly, I'm having trouble understanding why they added hydrogen peroxide to their water for this experiment:

 

Wouldn't that mess with the results, if they're adding hydrogen peroxide along with prime and the other water conditioning agents?

While I've not taken a chemistry class in almost 20 years, I suspect it is to exchange ions maybe? 

If this test is valid, which it very well may be, wouldn't Seachem legally 'have' to rebrand or change the label for PRime? I wonder if @Dean or @Cory could give this subject a good lookover for a livestream. Its all very interesting. 

[Schwack]

15 minutes ago, Solidus1833 said:

you got me wondering so I went and grabbed my bottle of Prime. As you say they don't list their ingredients, all it does say is : Contains complexed hydrosulfite salts. So not 'just' salts, there is something else like you theorized. 

Whelp, all I know is it did work for me. When I had an ammonia spike after the Texas Freeze, I dosed Prime and my fish did not show any signs of distress or burns while my tank cycled 2.0ppm Ammonia out of the aquarium over two days. 

Otherwise I guess its black magic hehe. 

Of all the major dechlorinators I've come across, Seachem seems the most secretive about their ingredients. Hikari seems to be the most open, but even they, understandably, withhold some of their proprietary chemicals.

I'm willing to admit I've bought in to the marketing, and the multitude of anecdotal evidence behind Prime's detoxifying effect. I'm not sure there's a humane way to test their claims unless someone has a means of measuring NH3 and NH4 separately.

edit: I'll add that the common knowledge passed around the internet is that Seachem is able to ionize NH3 into NH4+. My chemistry knowledge is long out of date, but that's typically what I see repeated.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Schwack

[laritheloud]

Just now, Solidus1833 said:

While I've not taken a chemistry class in almost 20 years, I suspect it is to exchange ions maybe? 

If this test is valid, which it very well may be, wouldn't Seachem legally 'have' to rebrand or change the label for PRime? I wonder if @Dean or @Cory could give this subject a good lookover for a livestream. Its all very interesting. 

I haven't taken a chem class since freshman year of college, so it beats me. I'd love a layman's terms explanation of that site.

[Solidus1833]

3 minutes ago, Schwack said:

Of all the major dechlorinators I've come across, Seachem seems the most secretive about their ingredients. Hikari seems to be the most open, but even they, understandably, withhold some of their proprietary chemicals.

I'm willing to admit I've bought in to the marketing, and the multitude of anecdotal evidence behind Prime's detoxifying effect. I'm not sure there's a humane way to test their claims unless someone has a means of measuring NH3 and NH4 separately.

Interesting, I never knew HIkari made water conditioner. I found an image. While Seachem proclaims Prime 'detoxifies ammonia, nitrate, nitrite; Hikari proclaims Ultimate 'removes' ammonia. Interesting. 

https://www.hikariusa.com/water_quality_folder/ultimate_solution.html

 

 

[DShelton]

Let me preface this in two ways:

• I have no axe to grind with Seachem, they make some fine products, many of which I buy and use. I do have an issue with their marketing on some products, especially prime.
• I am a degreed chemist.

I think everyone can agree that most municipal water supplies in the US will contain either 'chlorine' or chloramine, and those two chemical species are bad for fish and inverts.

When gaseous Cl2 is added to water, it reacts with the water like shown in the following two equilibria:

Cl2 + H2O  <--->   HCIO + H+ +  Cl−

HClO  + H20 <----> H3O+   +   ClO-

Reduction is the chemical process by which the dechlorinators work. They 'reduce' the chlorine species (CLO-) that are in water (as an anti-bacterial agent) to the harmless Cl-, and as the ClO- is consumed, both of the above equilibria are driven to the right.

 

The two most common active ingredients in most commercial dechlorinators is either sodium dithionite, or sodium thiosuphate. The chemistry is below:

thiosulphate is one of the products of the decomposition of dithionite in water, so whether your dechlorinator starts with dithionite or thiosulphate, the chemistry is the same.

sodium dithionite          thiosulphate

2 Na2S2O4 + H2O ---> Na2S2O3 + 2 H2SO3

The thiosulphate reacts with hypochlorite in water:

Na2S2O3 + 4 NaClO + H2O ---> H2SO4 + Na2SO4 + 4 NaCl

2 H2SO3 + 4 NaClO + H2O ---> 3 H2SO4 + 4 NaCl

I think you will recognize that final component of both of those equations as common salt, but the key thing here is it has been 'reduced', i.e. its oxidation state has changed from being positive (in the hypochlorite ion) to being negative in the chloride ion. This is what I mean when i say they contain reducing agents. They cause a chemical reduction (gaining electrons).

 

 

 

Now the second half of the chemistry, and the part which is marketing garbage, relates to its ability to 'detoxify' ammonia. In an aqueous solution (i.e. water) gaseous ammonia exists in the following equilibrium:

 

NH3   +   H2O    <------>    NH4+  +  OH

 

That particular equilibrium is pH and temperature dependent, but the key thing here:

• gaseous ammonia is toxic at ~.5 ppm total concentration.
• NH4+ is also toxic, but at much much much higher concentrations (dependant on pH)
• all of the titration based test kits (API, sera, etc) measure that concentration as a total, i.e. NH3 and NH4 together, so the test kits are not giving you the big picture. (The Seachem ammonia alert measures free ammonia. It is the one that hangs in the tank and is a good product since it is free ammonia)

 

What is actually happening in almost all aquaria is:

 

In just about all aquaria with a pH <  ~8.5 or so (which is a huge number of them;  here in N. Texas my tap ranges from 8.0 to 8.2) most of the ammonia (NH3) will exist as ammonium (NH4+). Free ammonia gas, actual NH3, is toxic at ~.5ppm.

A variety of factors (pH and temperature) will affect how much of the NH4 is free NH3 in solution, but in aquarium conditions, it is safe to approximate between .1 and 1% of total as NH3. In other words, your .25ppm "ammonia" as shown by the test kit, at your pH is less than 1% of that as free ammonia.

 

So in other words, the prime is not 'detoxifying' the ammonia. There is just not enough ammonia in the water for it to be toxic. Using the example that @Solidus1833gave of 2ppm total ammonia in their tap water. The actual amount of free ammonia was between: .02 and .2ppm which is not toxic. The prime did nothing.

 

The only way to truly make the ammonia safe is for it to be oxidized from NH3 ---> NO2-   ---->  NO3- and to my knowledge there is no aquarium safe chemistry to do this, beyond the Nitrosomas and Nitrobacter doing so through the nitrogen cycle.

 

 

 

EDIT: I am sure there are some typos, I was typing furiously to get it posted.

Edited May 11, 2021 by DShelton

[CT_]

16 minutes ago, laritheloud said:

https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/5-5-3-1-ammonia-detoxifying/ Is this the source @DShelton might be talking about? Because I'm having trouble parsing the methods and the reasoning for these conclusions. Particularly, I'm having trouble understanding why they added hydrogen peroxide to their water for this experiment:

I'd be careful with this source.  This guy clearly has a beef with sea chem and their prime product specifically.  There's lots of interesting stuff there that's food for thought but this guy is vague in a lot of places that make me skeptical too.

[laritheloud]

6 minutes ago, CT_ said:

I'd be careful with this source.  This guy clearly has a beef with sea chem and their prime product specifically.  There's lots of interesting stuff there that's food for thought but this guy is vague in a lot of places that make me skeptical too.

That's exactly why I wanted to ask specifically about these methods. I tend to be suspect of 'adding hydrogen peroxide' and here's the proof when a) no one adds hydrogen peroxide along with a water conditioner and b) they seem to have a clear agenda in writing this. I'd prefer to see a clearly-explained reasoning why and how this experiment was conducted, and why I should believe that their methods were bulletproof. I'm not convinced by the source and I was looking for clarification from someone who knows their chemistry. Thanks!

[Solidus1833]

3 minutes ago, DShelton said:

Let me preface this in two ways:

• I have no axe to grind with Seachem, they make some fine products, many of which I buy and use. I do have an issue with their marketing on some products, especially prime.
• I am a degreed chemist.

I think everyone can agree that most municipal water supplies in the US will contain either 'chlorine' or chloramine, and those two chemical species are bad for fish and inverts.

When gaseous Cl2 is added to water, it reacts with the water like shown in the following two equilibria:

Cl2 + H2O  <--->   HCIO + H+ +  Cl−

HClO  + H20 <----> H3O+   +   ClO-

Reduction is the chemical process by which the dechlorinators work. They 'reduce' the chlorine species (CLO-) that are in water (as an anti-bacterial agent) to the harmless Cl-, and as the ClO- is consumed, both of the above equilibria are driven to the right.

 

The two most common active ingredients in most commercial dechlorinators is either sodium dithionite, or sodium thiosuphate. The chemistry is below:

thiosulphate is one of the products of the decomposition of dithionite in water, so whether your dechlorinator starts with dithionite or thiosulphate, the chemistry is the same.

sodium dithionite          thiosulphate

2 Na2S2O4 + H2O ---> Na2S2O3 + 2 H2SO3

The thiosulphate reacts with hypochlorite in water:

Na2S2O3 + 4 NaClO + H2O ---> H2SO4 + Na2SO4 + 4 NaCl

2 H2SO3 + 4 NaClO + H2O ---> 3 H2SO4 + 4 NaCl

I think you will recognize that final component of both of those equations as common salt, but the key thing here is it has been 'reduced', i.e. its oxidation state has changed from being positive (in the hypochlorite ion) to being negative in the chloride ion. This is what I mean when i say they contain reducing agents. They cause a chemical reduction (gaining electrons).

 

 

 

Now the second half of the chemistry, and the part which is marketing garbage, relates to its ability to 'detoxify' ammonia. In an aqueous solution (i.e. water) gaseous ammonia exists in the following equilibrium:

 

NH3   +   H2O    <------>    NH4+  +  OH

 

That particular equilibrium is pH and temperature dependent, but the key thing here:

• gaseous ammonia is toxic at ~.5 ppm total concentration.
• NH4+ is also toxic, but at much much much higher concentrations (dependant on pH)
• all of the titration based test kits (API, sera, etc) measure that concentration as a total, i.e. NH3 and NH4 together, so the test kits are not giving you the big picture. (The Seachem ammonia alert measures free ammonia. It is the one that hangs in the tank and is a good product since it is free ammonia)

 

What is actually happening in almost all aquaria is:

 

In just about all aquaria with a pH <  ~8.5 or so (which is a huge number of them;  here in N. Texas my tap ranges from 8.0 to 8.2) most of the ammonia (NH3) will exist as ammonium (NH4+). Free ammonia gas, actual NH3, is toxic at ~.5ppm.

A variety of factors (pH and temperature) will affect how much of the NH4 is free NH3 in solution, but in aquarium conditions, it is safe to approximate between .1 and 1% of total as NH3. In other words, your .25ppm "ammonia" as shown by the test kit, at your pH is less than 1% of that as free ammonia.

 

So in other words, the prime is not 'detoxifying' the ammonia. There is just not enough ammonia in the water for it to be toxic. Using the exampe that @Solidus1833gate of 2ppm total ammonia in their tap water. The actual amount of free ammonia was between: .02 and .2ppm which is not toxic. The prime did nothing.

 

The only way to truly make the ammonia safe is for it to be oxidized from NH3 ---> NO2-   ---->  NO3- and to my knowledge there is no aquarium safe chemistry to do this, beyond the Nitrosomas and Nitrobacter doing so through the nitrogen cycle.

Thank you for this writeup. It makes a lot of sense. So in my example, really Prime did nothing, and my plants just did what plants do? I never saw any gill burn or stress on the fish because the 'real' level was well below toxic? 

Also I have a query for you. Hikary mentions their water conditioner has: electrolytes, buffers and a proprietary, polymer formula in aqueous solution. 

Electrolytes=sodium dithionite, or sodium thiosuphate?

Buffers? 

polymer formula?

aqueous solution=sterile H2O? 

Could you possibly elaborate on these ingredients? 

A polymer formula is the most interesting here of the ingredient list. Is there a liquid polymer that 'could' actually remove ammonia like Hikari claims? 

[CT_]

7 minutes ago, DShelton said:

The only way to truly make the ammonia safe is for it to be oxidized from NH3 ---> NO2-   ---->  NO3- and to my knowledge there is no aquarium safe chemistry to do this, beyond the Nitrosomas and Nitrobacter doing so through the nitrogen cycle.

I was under the, very possibly mistaken, impression that whatever hydrosulfite salts they have in there took NH3 -> NH2-, at least temporarily, which lowered the total NH3 , NH4+ (ph of course keeping that ratio fixed).  Is that plausible?

[DShelton]

43 minutes ago, RockMongler said:

Do you have a list of all the ingredients in Seachem Prime?  I'd love to see a list of them.  

I too would love to see a list of them. I have seen a document from Seachem that has some of them: bisulfites and hydrosulfites, aqueous solution, buffered at pH 8, which absolutely in line with the chemistry.

 

43 minutes ago, RockMongler said:

I suspect they have buffering agents in there, which can help keep the pH in a place where ammonia stays ammonium, and therefore, less harmful to fish.  That alone would, at least to a layman, "detoxify" the ammonia long enough for our BB to do its job.  Most also probably have an acid like ETDA that helps with unwanted metals in the water column.  

They are definitely buffered to slightly basic pH. Enough to keep the dithionite/thiosulphate stable in the bottle.

 

I do not dispute your claim that EDTA will chelate metals in aqueous solution, but that does not affect the ammonia chemistry.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by DShelton

[DShelton]

1 minute ago, Solidus1833 said:

hank you for this writeup. It makes a lot of sense. So in my example, really Prime did nothing, and my plants just did what plants do? I never saw any gill burn or stress on the fish because the 'real' level was well below toxic? 

spot on!

[tonyjuliano]

7 minutes ago, DShelton said:

The only way to truly make the ammonia safe is for it to be oxidized from NH3 ---> NO2-   ---->  NO3- and to my knowledge there is no aquarium safe chemistry to do this, beyond the Nitrosomas and Nitrobacter doing so through the nitrogen cycle.

Thanks so much for the well thought out and perfectly explained post.

"Marketing Types" should never try to argue with science.

[laritheloud]

13 minutes ago, DShelton said:

Let me preface this in two ways:

• I have no axe to grind with Seachem, they make some fine products, many of which I buy and use. I do have an issue with their marketing on some products, especially prime.
• I am a degreed chemist.

I think everyone can agree that most municipal water supplies in the US will contain either 'chlorine' or chloramine, and those two chemical species are bad for fish and inverts.

When gaseous Cl2 is added to water, it reacts with the water like shown in the following two equilibria:

Cl2 + H2O  <--->   HCIO + H+ +  Cl−

HClO  + H20 <----> H3O+   +   ClO-

Reduction is the chemical process by which the dechlorinators work. They 'reduce' the chlorine species (CLO-) that are in water (as an anti-bacterial agent) to the harmless Cl-, and as the ClO- is consumed, both of the above equilibria are driven to the right.

 

The two most common active ingredients in most commercial dechlorinators is either sodium dithionite, or sodium thiosuphate. The chemistry is below:

thiosulphate is one of the products of the decomposition of dithionite in water, so whether your dechlorinator starts with dithionite or thiosulphate, the chemistry is the same.

sodium dithionite          thiosulphate

2 Na2S2O4 + H2O ---> Na2S2O3 + 2 H2SO3

The thiosulphate reacts with hypochlorite in water:

Na2S2O3 + 4 NaClO + H2O ---> H2SO4 + Na2SO4 + 4 NaCl

2 H2SO3 + 4 NaClO + H2O ---> 3 H2SO4 + 4 NaCl

I think you will recognize that final component of both of those equations as common salt, but the key thing here is it has been 'reduced', i.e. its oxidation state has changed from being positive (in the hypochlorite ion) to being negative in the chloride ion. This is what I mean when i say they contain reducing agents. They cause a chemical reduction (gaining electrons).

 

 

 

Now the second half of the chemistry, and the part which is marketing garbage, relates to its ability to 'detoxify' ammonia. In an aqueous solution (i.e. water) gaseous ammonia exists in the following equilibrium:

 

NH3   +   H2O    <------>    NH4+  +  OH

 

That particular equilibrium is pH and temperature dependent, but the key thing here:

• gaseous ammonia is toxic at ~.5 ppm total concentration.
• NH4+ is also toxic, but at much much much higher concentrations (dependant on pH)
• all of the titration based test kits (API, sera, etc) measure that concentration as a total, i.e. NH3 and NH4 together, so the test kits are not giving you the big picture. (The Seachem ammonia alert measures free ammonia. It is the one that hangs in the tank and is a good product since it is free ammonia)

 

What is actually happening in almost all aquaria is:

 

In just about all aquaria with a pH <  ~8.5 or so (which is a huge number of them;  here in N. Texas my tap ranges from 8.0 to 8.2) most of the ammonia (NH3) will exist as ammonium (NH4+). Free ammonia gas, actual NH3, is toxic at ~.5ppm.

A variety of factors (pH and temperature) will affect how much of the NH4 is free NH3 in solution, but in aquarium conditions, it is safe to approximate between .1 and 1% of total as NH3. In other words, your .25ppm "ammonia" as shown by the test kit, at your pH is less than 1% of that as free ammonia.

 

So in other words, the prime is not 'detoxifying' the ammonia. There is just not enough ammonia in the water for it to be toxic. Using the example that @Solidus1833gave of 2ppm total ammonia in their tap water. The actual amount of free ammonia was between: .02 and .2ppm which is not toxic. The prime did nothing.

 

The only way to truly make the ammonia safe is for it to be oxidized from NH3 ---> NO2-   ---->  NO3- and to my knowledge there is no aquarium safe chemistry to do this, beyond the Nitrosomas and Nitrobacter doing so through the nitrogen cycle.

 

 

 

EDIT: I am sure there are some typos, I was typing furiously to get it posted.

Now this makes sense. And it actually makes me feel a whole lot better about my aquarium and any blips in my cycle. Thank you so much for the thorough writeup!

[CT_]

1 minute ago, laritheloud said:

That's exactly why I wanted to ask specifically about these methods. I tend to be suspect of 'adding hydrogen peroxide' and here's the proof when a) no one adds hydrogen peroxide along with a water conditioner and b) they seem to have a clear agenda in writing this. I'd prefer to see a clearly-explained reasoning why and how this experiment was conducted, and why I should believe that their methods were bulletproof. I'm not convinced by the source and I was looking for clarification from someone who knows their chemistry. Thanks!

Yeah :/.  across the whole website there's a lot of cool experiments the guy does but he doesn't add enough information to know exactly what he did or what his results were, just what his conclusions were.  He also has a section defending his writing by saying that academic papers are equally vague (not true IMO, though that's subjective I guess) and not reproducable.  There is a "reproducabillity crisis" across science right now, especially cancer research (medicine is especially hard, so I don't blame anyone) but academic papers usually still have enough methods that target audience can infer most of what was done.

[DShelton]

4 minutes ago, CT_ said:

I was under the, very possibly mistaken, impression that whatever hydrosulfite salts they have in there took NH3 -> NH2-, at least temporarily, which lowered the total NH3 , NH4+ (ph of course keeping that ratio fixed).  Is that plausible?

NH3  ---> NH2- just strips a proton from the ammonia. I would like to see that chemistry to understand it. At first thought I do not think the reducing environment in prime would be able to do that. I would have to do some more research.

[DShelton]

2 minutes ago, CT_ said:

Yeah :/.  across the whole website there's a lot of cool experiments the guy does but he doesn't add enough information to know exactly what he did or what his results were, just what his conclusions were.  He also has a section defending his writing by saying that academic papers are equally vague (not true IMO, though that's subjective I guess) and not reproducable.  There is a "reproducabillity crisis" across science right now, especially cancer research (medicine is especially hard, so I don't blame anyone) but academic papers usually still have enough methods that target audience can infer most of what was done.

I am familiar with the website, and while I do agree with a lot of his science, I wish he was not quite so antagonistic, and would provide the citations for what he is referencing. I have asked him for some of it. Hopefully he will share it.

[CT_]

5 minutes ago, DShelton said:

NH3  ---> NH2- just strips a proton from the ammonia. I would like to see that chemistry to understand it. At first thought I do not think the reducing environment in prime would be able to do that. I would have to do some more research.

NH4 + is also one proton different so I find it plausible that NH2- is also not toxic to fish.  My understanding came from a best guess during a water cooler conversation from a chemist I work with filtered through my thick skull, which is why I'm skeptical of my beliefs.

[DShelton]

11 minutes ago, Solidus1833 said:

Also I have a query for you. Hikary mentions their water conditioner has: electrolytes, buffers and a proprietary, polymer formula in aqueous solution. 

Electrolytes=sodium dithionite, or sodium thiosuphate?

Buffers? 

polymer formula?

aqueous solution=sterile H2O? 

Could you possibly elaborate on these ingredients? 

A polymer formula is the most interesting here of the ingredient list. Is there a liquid polymer that 'could' actually remove ammonia like Hikari claims? 

Electrolytes could be anything dissolved in water that produces ions (charged particles). The dithionite and thiosulphate (thiosulfate is the American spelling, I had a British professor as an undergrad and the habit stuck) are definitely electrolytes in that they are ions in solution, but they are the reducing agents in the dechlorinators. I.E. they are doing the heavy lifting on the chlorine.

 

A buffer is a solution that is a mixture of a weak acid and a salt of that weak acid. They can be mixed in specific ratios in water to produce solutions of a specific pH.

 

The polymer formula could be anything there are tons of polymers (i have seen some as ingredients in my contact lens saline solution). I will go check out the MSDS for the Hikari product and see if it has some insight.

 

and aqueous just means a solution (homogenous mixture) in water.

[tonyjuliano]

Here's an interesting factoid for everyone...

Seachem states that the results obtained from using Prime, or their Amguard product cannot be tested using the API ammonia test kit.

They claim that the API kit raises pH in the test sample to a level that a false positive for ammonia is generated.

I'm not a chemist (but I am an engineer with a masters degree in wastewater management), and this makes little sense to me.

Willing to be "schooled", please only educated chemists reply.

Edited May 11, 2021 by tonyjuliano