Help: Apistogramma drama for your mama

[Mahi27]

Hi all,

I recently scaped and cycled a standard 10gal. Please see the attached pics for reference; I tried to follow the video where Dean explains how to set up a 10gal to breed apistos. I hoped to have a little community thing going on after being told by my LFS that borelliis are a more docile variety of apisto. Despite my ambitions, soon after starting to stock it about a week and a half ago, the problems began.

In my vast impatience, over the course of about a week I added:

• two apistogrammas borellii 
• 6 endlers -- 4 adults and 2 fry hitch-hikers (thank you LRB Aquatics!)
• 6 corydoras similis

Can you guess what happened? The endlers are fine but I am down three(!) adorble and expensive corys and the subdominant apisto is on its way out, and I am pretty sure all of these fish have died from being bullied in combination with some other stress factor. For example, the cycle might not have been as done as I thought -- I've been seeing nitrites in the water, but I'm not sure if this is from all the dead fish decomposing before I can net them out or what. Chicken and egg.

What I know for sure is I definitely did NOT receive a breeding pair -- in fact I think I got the most macho alpha male apisto you'd ever want and the most sickly, weak beta/omega male you can imagine. I understand this was a possibility since they were too young to sex; I took my chances and lost.

Anyways...I also know I did a lot of things wrong with this tank. I let it cycle but didn't let it mature. I added fish way too fast. I didn't quarantine any of them. Now I'm just trying to pick up the pieces.

My ask: Where do I go from here? Does anybody have any similar experience with this kind of thing? Is this normal apisto borellii behavior? Did I overstock the tank? Any other interesting/insightful fish aggression stories you can share to help others out? Thanks.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Mahi27

[Fish Folk]

9 hours ago, Mahi27 said:

Hi all,

I recently scaped and cycled a standard 10gal. Please see the attached pics for reference; I tried to follow the video where Dean explains how to set up a 10gal to breed apistos. I hoped to have a little community thing going on after being told by my LFS that borelliis are a more docile variety of apisto. Despite my ambitions, soon after starting to stock it about a week and a half ago, the problems began.

In my vast impatience, over the course of about a week I added:

• two apistogrammas borellii 
• 6 endlers -- 4 adults and 2 fry hitch-hikers (thank you LRB Aquatics!)
• 6 corydoras similis

Can you guess what happened? The endlers are fine but I am down three(!) adorble and expensive corys and the subdominant apisto is on its way out, and I am pretty sure all of these fish have died from being bullied in combination with some other stress factor. For example, the cycle might not have been as done as I thought -- I've been seeing nitrites in the water, but I'm not sure if this is from all the dead fish decomposing before I can net them out or what. Chicken and egg.

What I know for sure is I definitely did NOT receive a breeding pair -- in fact I think I got the most macho alpha male apisto you'd ever want and the most sickly, weak beta/omega male you can imagine. I understand this was a possibility since they were too young to sex; I took my chances and lost.

Anyways...I also know I did a lot of things wrong with this tank. I let it cycle but didn't let it mature. I added fish way too fast. I didn't quarantine any of them. Now I'm just trying to pick up the pieces.

My ask: Where do I go from here? Does anybody have any similar experience with this kind of thing? Is this normal apisto borellii behavior? Did I overstock the tank? Any other interesting/insightful fish aggression stories you can share to help others out? Thanks.

Sorry to hear. Tank looks pretty! How exactly did you cycle the aquarium?

My guess is that there are several known factors, but perhaps more at play: (1) Uncycled tank / New tank syndrome (2) Aggression (3) Possibly some additional illness brought in, or caused by other factors.

If possible, can fish be temporarily moved while you figure this out?

I suggest starting with a full test of your parameters: (1) Temperature (2) pH (3) Ammonia (2) Nitrite (3) Nitrate (4) GH (5) KH

It appears that there is bio film on your glass surfaces. I think it’s just not balanced out yet.

Any signs of wounds on your corys?  Adding another air stone might help turn over the water some, and aerate the water column. 

[anewbie]

A couple of things - in addition to perhaps a problem with the tank not being cycled (you can determine such by measuring the ammonia  and nitrite) the other issue is a 10g might be fine for breeding a pair of borelli but it is not suitable for breeding and tank mates. The cory should be removed and it wouldn't hurt to remove the endler. Also if the borelli do breed you need to be prepared to remove the male.

Edited May 11, 2021 by anewbie

[Mahi27]

4 hours ago, Fish Folk said:

Sorry to hear. Tank looks pretty! How exactly did you cycle the aquarium?

My guess is that there are several known factors, but perhaps more at play: (1) Uncycled tank / New tank syndrome (2) Aggression (3) Possibly some additional illness brought in, or caused by other factors.

If possible, can fish be temporarily moved while you figure this out?

I suggest starting with a full test of your parameters: (1) Temperature (2) pH (3) Ammonia (2) Nitrite (3) Nitrate (4) GH (5) KH

It appears that there is bio film on your glass surfaces. I think it’s just not balanced out yet.

Any signs of wounds on your corys?  Adding another air stone might help turn over the water some, and aerate the water column. 

Thank you and @anewbie for your input, as well as your kind words about the layout.

 

I agree that the tank must not be balanced. I really jumped the gun on this one. I cycled the tank by putting a cycled sponge filter in there and squirting an overdose of beneficial bacteria in. A couple days later I tested and saw zero ammonia and low nitrites and said holy smokes, I'm going to the LFS this weekend!

I can move the fish out, but the problem with that is my QT tank isn't set up, so they'd be moving from an almost cycled tank to a completely uncycled tank. Fwiw, I always have ammonia issues in my QT setups and don't know what I'm doing wrong there. Help?

As for wounds on the corys...some were missing their eyes, but this could be advanced decomposition. When the apisto attacks them, he just chases them around the tank and fin-nips and stresses them out. 

[anewbie]

Yes once a fish is dead frequently the other tank mates will treat it as food. However the issue is long term the dynamics isn't great. Did this 'beneficial bacteria' you squirted into the tank come from a package or do you mean you rinsed a filter in the tank. If it came from a package there was another user who on these forums who reported that after using such a product all their fishes died in a few hours.

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At this point if you have sachem prime or similar on hand I would put in a few drops to help neutralize the nitrite and ammonia (if there is any). If the nitrite levels are above 0.5ppm it could be fairly serve depending on exact level. At this point i would leave all the fishes in the tank since you have no place to put them and try to get this tank cycled. With the established sponge filter it shouldn't take more than 3 or 4 days with slight blips in ammonia and nitrite that sachem prime (or similar) can neutralize.

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With regards to your QT tank - one thing you should do is measure your tap water. It is not uncommon for tap water to contain some level of nitrate or similar. There should be no ammonia in the qt tank in most situations until you actually add something that produces ammonia (like fish). Even then it won't be instant but certainly after 24 hours you might notice a little depending on number of fishes and water volume. 

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I personally never use 'live bacteria' and there has been some research on effectiveness. There is one specific type that is suppose to be very good and several types that are hogwash (basically does nothing) and several that can be not so healthy for the fishes. Alas while I skimmed several articles on the matter i paid little attention to the details like brands since i never use the stuff. 

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The tank itself looks like a decent layout it is just feels a bit small for the cory and borelli to live in peace esp if you plan on breeding the broelli.

Edited May 11, 2021 by anewbie

[Mahi27]

@anewbie, I used this exact live bacteria product: https://www.aquascapeinc.com/products/maintain-for-ponds, not a full pump since it's obviously quite concentrated. I can't say I share all your skepticism about bottled bacteria, but I'm definitely going to be more vigilant about using it as a crutch in the future. Thank you so much, nonetheless, for your input regarding it.

In terms of an update, today I came home and unfortunately the subdominant apisto has passed. He was really not looking hot yesterday. I wish I had not created this situation and I just hope to learn from it at this point. That said, the parameters were good (the weak apisto passed in a specimen container so no contamination in the main tank). I am going to keep testing the water on the daily for a little while. I'll also be keeping a close eye on how the remaining apisto handles his 3 remaining cory roommates and moving/rehoming as necessary.

Thank you guys again for the attention toward my issues and please forgive these egregious missteps in fishkeeping. I'm sorry, too, to the fish who died under my care. 😞