Nitrogen cycle not started after 4 months of fish-in

[SBor02]

We are 4 months into a fish-in cycle for our 1 betta in a 5 gallon aquarium.  I posted awhile ago about a sudden pH drop and we have gotten that issue taken care of.  However, we have not ever registered nitrites or nitrates.  We use Prime daily for the ammonia, which has never risen above .25.  We have added API Quick Start and Brightwell MicroBacterStart XLF.  Our Betta's fin rot is progressing so we are getting desperate trying to figure out what to do.  Any advice is appreciated.

[Colu]

Do you have live plants and you can add crushed coral to act as a buffer so your   ph doesn't drop

[SWilson]

Sorry to hear this!  That sounds really stressful.  

You might want to try some salt or medication for the fin rot as well.  Though it probably will not get better until the water issue is sorted out.  Sorry if this is repeating what was said on your other post about the pH crash, but that could kill off your bacteria.  What is your pH now? 

Also, be mindful that there are limits to how much prime you can use in the tank.  

I agree with Colu.  Live plants will help with the cycling.  For bottled bacteria I tend to prefer Fritzyme 7 (which the Coop sells).  Alternatively, do you have a fish store you could get a bag of gravel from?  The gravel will/should contain nitrifying bacteria to help boost your cycle.  There is a risk you could bring in bacteria or parasite along with the gravel, but, like you said, desperate times...  

Another option is see if you can get some Caribsea EcoComplete substrate (the stuff with liquid in the bag advertising live bacteria and instant cycle).  That stuff has worked for us.  

I fully understand this is not an option for many folks, but I'll just throw in too that a 10 gal or larger tank will dilute the ammonia/nitrite more, and will be easier to keep parameters stable in the long run. 

Lastly, you could stop feeding the betta until the ammonia and/or nitrite levels go down and just let the cycle take its course, if you're doing tons of water changes to keep the ammonia at .25, that could be disrupting the beneficial bacteria and slowing down your cycle.   

Good luck, hang in there, and keep us posted! 

Edited May 10, 2021 by SWilson

[Hobbit]

8 hours ago, BIG GREEN said:

Its never a good idea to do a fish in cycle for this very reason. A tank should always be cycled befor a wet pet is added to it. 

I know you’re just trying to use this as a teaching moment, but I imagine @SBor02 already feels bad, and making them feel worse isn’t going to accomplish anything. We try really hard to stay non-judgmental here, which is what makes this forum so awesome compared to every other fish forum on the internet where if you ask for help you just get slammed. If someone’s coming here for help, you can generally assume they already know they did something wrong. No need to highlight it. 👍

[Patrick_G]

How do you have the tank set up? What kind of substrate, what filtration and are there any live plants? The beneficial bacteria need places to live like the substrate and filter media, and the plants use up the Ammonia from the fish waste. 
Is there a local Facebook group for aquarium hobbyists in your area? You might be able to get some gravel or pre cycled filter media to get your cycle jump started. In the meantime some easy to grow plants will help with the Ammonia. Floating plants like Frogbit and Dwarf Water Lettuce work great and are easy to grow.  

[Lowells Fish Lab]

Could I ask what kind of water test you use? I know "resetting" a cycle can happen if you change out too much water early on but I have such a hard time believing that there could be zero bacterial development after such a long time.

Just a couple of things that come to mind for me: is there a chance of false positives on the ammonia test because water is constantly being replaced with freshly dechlorinated water? Doesn't dechlorinator break chloramines down and release free ammonia/ammonium? 

Same with the nitrates. I went for weeks thinking I had zero nitrates till one day I reread the instructions on my API master test kit and found out I had been doing the test wrong the whole time.

If the situation is what it appears to be, I'm a fan of live plants, light feeding, and sometimes fritz turbo start to help cycle from a cold start.

[Patrick_G]

Valuable advice @Lowells Fish Lab! 

[Okayestaquarist]

For plants that will help, I would recommend floating plants like Amazon Frogbit, Hornwort, or Anachris. Fast growing and easy, and will comfort the betta.

[SBor02]

3 hours ago, Patrick_G said:

How do you have the tank set up? What kind of substrate, what filtration and are there any live plants? The beneficial bacteria need places to live like the substrate and filter media, and the plants use up the Ammonia from the fish waste. 
Is there a local Facebook group for aquarium hobbyists in your area? You might be able to get some gravel or pre cycled filter media to get your cycle jump started. In the meantime some easy to grow plants will help with the Ammonia. Floating plants like Frogbit and Dwarf Water Lettuce work great and are easy to grow.  

 

3 hours ago, Lowells Fish Lab said:

Could I ask what kind of water test you use? I know "resetting" a cycle can happen if you change out too much water early on but I have such a hard time believing that there could be zero bacterial development after such a long time.

Just a couple of things that come to mind for me: is there a chance of false positives on the ammonia test because water is constantly being replaced with freshly dechlorinated water? Doesn't dechlorinator break chloramines down and release free ammonia/ammonium? 

Same with the nitrates. I went for weeks thinking I had zero nitrates till one day I reread the instructions on my API master test kit and found out I had been doing the test wrong the whole time.

If the situation is what it appears to be, I'm a fan of live plants, light feeding, and sometimes fritz turbo start to help cycle from a cold start.

14 hours ago, BIG GREEN said:

 

 Its never a good idea to do a fish in cycle for this very reason. A tank should always be cycled befor a wet pet is added to it.  If you have not done it, do a google on Fish-in cycle, it may give you the insight you need to help you cycle that tank.  

If your fish has fin rott, you might as well treat it with Mardel Maracyn , follow the direction to the letter.

If you ever you get the issues solved in your tank for your wet pet, look into indian almond leaves and betta fish.

Good luck

Yes, if we get another fish in the future that is what we will.do. At this point I am just trying to figure out why the jump from ammonia to nitrite is not occuring.  When I do the water changes the ammonia drops lower so in my mind if I do not back off on water changes then there is less ammonia to help the cycle along.  

Thanks everyone. I'm going to try to hit all the points right now. Up until 3 weeks ago I was doing two to three water changes of 25% a week. However I have not done one for a few weeks thinking that that could be diluting the ammonia too much and that's why the cycle was not starting. However even after 3 weeks the ammonia never gets above .25. I use an API Master test kit to take all of the readings. Some other groups online have pointed out about having to follow the nitrate test procedures precisely and I have done that as well but still I have never registered nitrite or nitrate.

 

As for surfaces for the bacteria to grow, I have standard aquarium gravel, then I did add a filter sponge over the water spout to control the current and then I also have the black sponge type filter that came with the aquarium.

 

The pH has been holding steady at 6.8 for a few months now.

 

I am just stuck because when I was doing regular water changes the cycle wasn't going and then when I stopped the water changes and just relied on the prime to control the ammonia it's just never got above .25.  

[Colu]

If you have live plants there suck up all the nitrates meaning a cycle tank can get a 0 nitrate reading

Edited May 10, 2021 by Colu

[Patrick_G]

If you have a Local Fish Store I’d take a sample of your water and see if their readings match yours. Maybe they’ll also give you a cup of cycled gravel or media to add to your tank. You can put it in a mesh filter bag even cut the foot from some pantyhose and put it in that. If that doesn’t work then I’m out of ideas. 

[Schwack]

You could always try not adding Prime and just monitoring the water. I can't imagine the addition of Prime is harming the development of bacteria, but it's the only thing that stands out as odd. Cut feedings to once every other day or two and give the water a check every so often. In conjunction with this, I'd stop doing any kind of regular water change. Let the parameters tell you when it's time to change. Unless ammonia hits ~.75 ppm I'd let things go. Nitrites should trigger a change as they close in on .5 ppm. While doing this, I'd consider buying some plants that have been in a cycled tank. Even big box stores have these. Plunk them into your tank without any treatment to preserve the bacteria growing on the plant. If you can find one, a plant grown in rock wool is a great source of bb. Handfuls of substrata are another great, and possibly free, option.

The fin rot really does complicate things. Do you have another tank or bin the betta could go in for treatment? A plastic tote will do in a pinch. That would let you easily medicate with an anti fungal, anti bacterial, salt or all three. If you add live plants to your current tank, that sort of takes salt off the table as a treatment. Plus, you can do water changes without affecting your cycling.

A healthy betta can typically make it through a fish in cycle, but I'm not sure I'd subject a sick fish to that level of stress. Trying to cycle the tank while treating your fish is going to be a challenge. It's a pain but I'd separate the problems.

There's a good chance you'll need an ammonia source during cycling if you remove your fish. I'm a big fan of ammonium chloride, but fish food dropped into the empty tank works too.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Schwack
Commas are hard.

[Mmiller2001]

This may be anecdotal, but I once had this problem. So I asked for help on some forum, can't remember where; but one random reply fixed the problem. He said dose some fertilizer, so I did and boom, the tank cycled. I dosed a tiny amount of Seachem Flourish. My guess I was lacking some element the bacteria needed.

Worth a try?

[Patrick_G]

5 minutes ago, Schwack said:

 I'd consider buying some plants that have been in a cycled tank. Even big box stores have these. Plunk them into your tank without any treatment to preserve the bacteria growing on the plant. If you can find one, a plant grown in rock wool is a great source of bb. Handfuls of substrata are another great, and possibly free, option.

Good idea on the plants. 

[DShelton]

6 hours ago, SBor02 said:

The pH has been holding steady at 6.8 for a few months now.

With the pH less than 7, the ammonia (NH3) in the water is effectively all ammonium (NH4). Ammonium, while it will register with the API test kit as free ammonia is absolutely less toxic than free ammonia. A variety of factors will affect how much of the NH4 is free NH3 in solution, in an acidic pH, it will be between .1 and 1% of NH4 as NH3. In other words, your .25ppm "ammonia" as shown by the test kit, at your pH is less than 1% of that as free ammonia, and in an acid pH that amount of ammonia is non-toxic.

 

The prime is absolutely preventing your cycle from continuing. Prime (and other de-chlorinators for that matter) are reducing agents (usually sodium dithionite). Chemically they provide free electrons to Cl2 (HClO) to "reduce" it to 2Cl-. The only way to "detoxify" ammonia is through oxidation, i.e. our friendly neighborhood nitrogen cycle that we are familiar with. By keeping the concentration of the reducing agent in the water very high, you are preventing the oxidative processes from taking hold, i.e. those Nitrobacter and Nitrosomas colonies from establishing themselves.

Edited May 11, 2021 by DShelton
typo if == of

[Schwack]

4 minutes ago, DShelton said:

The prime is absolutely preventing your cycle from continuing. Prime (and other de-chlorinators for that matter) are reducing agents (usually sodium dithionite). Chemically they provide free electrons to Cl2 to "reduce" it to 2Cl-. The only way to "detoxify" ammonia is through oxidation, i.e. our friendly neighborhood nitrogen cycle that we are familiar with. By keeping the concentration of the reducing agent in the water very high, you are preventing the oxidative processes from taking hold, i.e. those Nitrobacter and Nitrosomas colonies from establishing themselves.

I've seen speculation that Prime uses sodium thiosulfate to dechlorinate, does that change any of the chemistry? I'm curious to know the process through which Prime works, but I know it's difficult to get a concrete answer when the makeup is unknown. Speaking for myself, I'm often forced to rely on what is essentially marketing jargon when it comes to many aquarium chemicals because information regarding the chemistry is difficult to find.

[DShelton]

27 minutes ago, Schwack said:

I've seen speculation that Prime uses sodium thiosulfate

thiosulphate is one of the products of the decomposition of dithionite in water:

2 Na2S2O4 + H2O ---> Na2S2O3 + 2 H2SO3

The thiosulphate reacts with hypochlorite in water:

Na2S2O3 + 4 NaClO + H2O ---> H2SO4 + Na2SO4 + 4 NaCl

2 H2SO3 + 4 NaClO + H2O ---> 3 H2SO4 + 4 NaCl

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by DShelton
typo

[SBor02]

2 hours ago, DShelton said:

With the pH less than 7, the ammonia (NH3) in the water is effectively all ammonium (NH4). Ammonium, while it will register with the API test kit as free ammonia is absolutely less toxic than free ammonia. A variety of factors will affect how much of the NH4 is free NH3 in solution, in an acidic pH, it will be between .1 and 1% of NH4 as NH3. In other words, your .25ppm "ammonia" as shown by the test kit, at your pH is less than 1% if that as free ammonia, and in an acid pH that amount of ammonia is non-toxic.

 

The prime is absolutely preventing your cycle from continuing. Prime (and other de-chlorinators for that matter) are reducing agents (usually sodium dithionite). Chemically they provide free electrons to Cl2 to "reduce" it to 2Cl-. The only way to "detoxify" ammonia is through oxidation, i.e. our friendly neighborhood nitrogen cycle that we are familiar with. By keeping the concentration of the reducing agent in the water very high, you are preventing the oxidative processes from taking hold, i.e. those Nitrobacter and Nitrosomas colonies from establishing themselves.

Sorry, as I may not understand this properly.  Should I stop using prime then to help the cycle along? 

 

At what point should I use prime in the process?  

Since I have not done a water change should I start back up doing regular 25% water changes since there is so much prime in the water?  

Shoukd I try to raise the pH?  

 

Thanks for all of the help.

 

[DShelton]

10 minutes ago, SBor02 said:

At what point should I use prime in the process?  

Prime should only be added to fresh water during a water change.

 

11 minutes ago, SBor02 said:

Since I have not done a water change should I start back up doing regular 25% water changes since there is so much prime in the water?  

What does your tap water look like? Is it known to have chlorine (hypochlorite), or chloramine? You do not have enough ammonia in the water to merit a water change IMO. A concentration of .25 ppm ammonia at a pH of 6.8 is not is not toxic to your fish. If it is chloramine, a water change only adds more ammonia to the tank (a product of the reaction between the dechlorinator and chloramine) and in an established tank this is absolutely no issue since the established bio filter sucks that ammonia up almost instantly. 

I would not a water change at this point.

 

26 minutes ago, SBor02 said:

Shoukd I try to raise the pH?  

The pH is fine. I would not chase any water chemistry. 

 

What is the pH of your tap water?

[SBor02]

On 5/10/2021 at 6:45 PM, DShelton said:

Prime should only be added to fresh water during a water change.

 

What does your tap water look like? Is it known to have chlorine (hypochlorite), or chloramine? You do not have enough ammonia in the water to merit a water change IMO. A concentration of .25 ppm ammonia at a pH of 6.8 is not is not toxic to your fish. If it is chloramine, a water change only adds more ammonia to the tank (a product of the reaction between the dechlorinator and chloramine) and in an established tank this is absolutely no issue since the established bio filter sucks that ammonia up almost instantly. 

I would not a water change at this point.

 

The pH is fine. I would not chase any water chemistry. 

 

What is the pH of your tap water?

At what point should I do a water change to help with the ammonia?  Should I just do water changes to control the ammonia and only use Prime if there is a big spike at this point?  Thank you for all of your help

[Colu]

When your test shows any ammonia I do small daily water changes and dose with prime till my beneficial bacterial catches up

[Betsy]

Any chance we could get a betta pic??  I'd love to see his/her condition!  And/or a picture of your tank?  I'd love to see the set-up!

I agree with @DShelton - I wouldn't change water at 0.25 ppm ammonia.  As you suggested earlier...if you want the cycle to happen, you've got to have some ammonia for the bacteria to eat!!  I think you've done the right thing by holding off on the water changes.

I water change when I hit 0.5 ppm ammonia, and I don't change more than 25%...after that happens a few times, the frequency of water changes tend to get farther and farther apart because the bacteria has been practicing and is better able to take care of the ammonia issue! 

My school tank is a 5 gallon, and I haven't water changed in three weeks...I wouldn't say that water changes are necessary unless the ammonia is over 0.5 ppm or the filter/tank is getting gross.  When I was cycling that tank, I tested the water twice a day for about three weeks and never saw a real nitrite spike...but that puppy is definitely cycled now!  I used bottled bacteria and ghost fed at first...but my cycle really didn't take off until I got plants and nerite snails...I think it's tougher to cycle a tank if there aren't living, pooping things present.  Sometimes you've just gotta let nature do it's thing! 🌱 

The consistent ammonia level of 0.25 ppm doesn't scare me...but I'd definitely be checking daily with the end goal to be to hit 0 ppm.  And, keep an eyeball on the betta for worsening symptoms like lethargy, white fuzzies, and/or not eating!  

Best of luck!!!  I look forward to your updates!!!  We're rooting for you to win this cycle game! 😄👍

[SBor02]

On 5/10/2021 at 6:45 PM, DShelton said:

Prime should only be added to fresh water during a water change.

 

What does your tap water look like? Is it known to have chlorine (hypochlorite), or chloramine? You do not have enough ammonia in the water to merit a water change IMO. A concentration of .25 ppm ammonia at a pH of 6.8 is not is not toxic to your fish. If it is chloramine, a water change only adds more ammonia to the tank (a product of the reaction between the dechlorinator and chloramine) and in an established tank this is absolutely no issue since the established bio filter sucks that ammonia up almost instantly. 

I would not a water change at this point.

 

The pH is fine. I would not chase any water chemistry. 

 

What is the pH of your tap water?

So I found out that our water has chloramine.  I should still add prime to the tap water when it is time to do a water change, correct?

[Betsy]

10 minutes ago, SBor02 said:

So I found out that our water has chloramine.  I should still add prime to the tap water when it is time to do a water change, correct?

Absolutely!!!!

Dose it up!

I used to use Prime to dechlorinate, but ended up switching to Fluval AquaPlus because the Prime measurements were too tiny for a 5 gallon...let alone a one gallon water change!  Out of curiosity, how do you measure it out?

[Schwack]

2 hours ago, Betsy said:

Absolutely!!!!

Dose it up!

I used to use Prime to dechlorinate, but ended up switching to Fluval AquaPlus because the Prime measurements were too tiny for a 5 gallon...let alone a one gallon water change!  Out of curiosity, how do you measure it out?

I use 2mL plastic syringes, without needles, from Amazon for almost all my meds/dechlorinators. They work fantastically for measuring out tiny amounts. Eyeballing that stuff is probably fine, but I just can't bring myself to do it.