Several General Tubbing Questions

[TheDukeAnumber1]

I lurk the forum and have no questions, but a live stream pops up and my question engines activate, and my how things have changed from the days when as a non-member I could get one and sometimes two questions answered in a stream. Thankfully there is a forum now and I can bring questions to you guys!

1) What solar powered floating water fountains would you recommend for a summer tub located away from power?

2) I want to run a 100g brine shrimp pond this year but I don't know what I would do with the saltwater upon take down. I don't want to dump that into my septic tank and I have land but I the places where I wouldn't mind to "salt the earth" isn't anywhere near where I want to keep the brine tub? Is there an alternative was to dispose of it?

3) Lastly, does anyone have experience with mosquito fish or tubbing with other US Natives. I want to play with some natives in tubs this year and want to stick to fish off this list, IDNR Aproved Aquatic Species . I'll either go collecting or try aquabid if collection fails. I love redbelly dace and creek chubs but those are more suited for stream life. I am leaning towards mosquito fish for their toughness, live bearing, there anti mosquito nature. and they check the "approved box", but I would like other suggestions.

[Cory]

The solar powered floating options I have tried, work but usually get gunked up by plants/algae. In this situation, currently I'd probably just skip anything electrical. I have a pond that has been running I think 3 years now that is absolutely thirving, produces more fish than the one with a sponge filter setup the same way.

 

As for a brine shrimp pond. I noticed yesterday my brine shrimp are alive and active again. We finally got our first days above about 60 this last week. I didn't take down my pond, just let it be over the winter. Now the eggs are hatching.

 

The only natives I've done outside are the rainbow shiners, they seemed to do well in our climate which isn't as extreme as other places.

[TheDukeAnumber1]

@'Cory

Thanks for making the time.

That is good news for the brine pond, I didn't think they would overwinter like that, maybe I'll switch my mindset to finding a spot for it to stay year round.

[PlaneFishGuy]

@TheDukeAnumber1 I just started a 100g stock tank pond in my backyard here in Alabama with some mosquito fish my kids caught from a local pond and had in a tank for about a year. They have been outside for about 2 weeks in temperatures ranging from the low 70s to overnight temps in the low 40s.

They actually seem way happier in the stock tank than the aquarium. Most of what we put in the stock tank were offspring of the wild caught fish in the aquarium; I don't know if they are hardier than fish that never were in a 'wild" pond. We are going to have some overnight lows in the high 30s this week so I am hoping I don't find the low end of their temperature tolerance. I am planning to overwinter the stock tank.   

I plan to add some White Clouds and Celestial Pearl Danios at the end of this week.  I vetted this in another thread because I heard mosquito fish can be "aggressive." Other folks described them as "pushy" but not aggressive. When we had them in the aquarium we did not keep them with any other fish but I didn't really see any aggression among themselves.  

they seemed to prefer the upper portion of the aquarium and reminded me of some danios I had a long time ago - in the stock tank they seem to be adjusting based the temperature (bottom during cold nights / mid to top during warm day). They seem smart enough to be leery of the surface and are using cover and shadows pretty well to hide but I have some frogbit on order to give them some better cover.  

They bred like crazy in the aquarium - at one point we even separated a female into a 1 gallon pitcher immediately after dropping fry. The plan was to make the pitcher a temporary home until we figured out a plan and temporary became longer than planned and she had two more batches of fry after being isolated....

I didn't know what a mosquito fish was when we brought them home - I just thought they were a common minnow - then I noticed the livebearer-like tail and started researching. Next thing you know I'm back in the fish hobby after 20 years and have gone full blown crazy. 

This is my first attempt at a pond so please understand this is based on my very limited experience. 

[Celly Rasbora]

Is mosquito fish a gambusia?

[Daniel]

Just now, Celly Rasbora said:

Is mosquito fish a gambusia?

Yes it is!

[Anita]

One thing to consider with mosquito fish (Gambusia) is they have fallen out of favor for mosquito control because a) they do not eat many mosquitos and unfortunately, b) compete with other native fish species. Below is an excerpt from "Adverse Assessments of Gambusia affinis" published by the North American Native Fishes Association (NANFA): 

Quote

Impact of Introduction: According to Courtenay and Meffe (1989), mosquitofish have had the greatest ecological impact by far of any of the introduced poeciliids. Although widely introduced as mosquito control agents, recent critical reviews of the world literature on mosquito control have not supported the view that Gambusia are particularly effective in reducing mosquito populations or in reducing the incidence of mosquito-borne diseases (Courtenay and Meffe 1989; Arthington and Lloyd 1989). Because of their aggressive and predatory behavior, mosquitofish may negatively affect populations of small fish through predation and competition (Myers 1967; Courtenay and Meffe 1989), and benefit mosquitos by decreasing competitive pressure from zoooplantion and predation pressure from predatory invertebrates (Blaustein and Karban 1990). In some habitats, introduced mosquitofish reportedly displaced select native fish species regarded as better or more efficient mosquito control agents (Danielsen 1968; Courtenay and Meffe 1989).

FWIW, I would regard the Illinois list you are reading with a bit of caution if you are trying to stick with truly native fish species. At a glance, the list of "approved species" includes several fish that I believe are NOT native to Illinois. I suspect this list combines native fish with fish having commercial or recreational value. For example, the list includes goldfish, which hardly seem to be a desirable species in the wild for any reason I can think of. 

Notice that the list is titled "Aquatic Life Approved Species List" and defined as (bold text is mine): 
"For the purposes of Section 20-90 of the Fish and Aquatic Life Code [515 ILCS 5/20-90], the Aquatic Life Approved Species List is established. The following aquatic life categories will be considered approved for aquaculture, transportation, stocking, importation and/or possession in the State of Illinois. Those species having special requirements are indicated by an asterisk (*)."

So I guess it boils down to how strongly you feel about having native fish. For a more reliable list of non-native fishes that identifies exotics, as well as fish not native to Illinois (transplanted from other regions in North America), I suggest using the USGS database of Nonindigenous Aquatic Species. Here are the search results for Group: Fishes + State: Illinois + Sort By: Taxonomic Group.

Using the USGS database, I learned that the Northern Redbelly Dace (Chrosomus eos/Phoxinus eos) is native to waters north of (e.g., Wisconsin), but not actually in Illinois. "Native Range: Atlantic, Great Lakes, Hudson Bay, upper Mississippi, Missouri, and Peace-Mackenzie River drainages, from Nova Scotia west to Northwest Territories and British Columbia, south to northern Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Nebraska, and Colorado (Page and Burr 1991)." The species guide includes a color-coded map. 

You can also find a database for native fish at FishMap.org (hosted by NANFA). Using their interactive map, I clicked on the middle of Illinois state, which brought up a list of native and exotic fishes for the Mackinaw Watershed. You can also find information about keeping native fish at NANFA (via articles and their forum). 

Haha, probably more information than you wanted to know about native fishes. 🤪

 

[Anita]

Does the fountain need to float? The problem with most floating solar fountains is their GPH is severely restricted by the solar collector panel size—most of them produce less than 4W power. And of course, the floating fountain will block sunlight from reaching your plants. Eg., an 8" diameter floating fountain would take up almost 1/3 the width of a 26" diameter half-whisky barrel. 

Are you trying to keep the water oxygenated? I use a stationery solar fountain wired to a solar collector panel (20W, 360GPH) that sits on the ground. (With a little DIY, the panel could be mounted on a post.) Having the panel outside the pond alleviates the problem of the solar cells getting covered up by gunk, aka, algae/plants. The fountain and pump sit at the bottom of the pond, leaving most of the water surface open for sunlight and gas exchange. In addition to providing aeration, the fountain output is part of a trickle sump, so I need the output to stay in one place. You can downgrade/upgrade the pump GPH with a smaller/larger solar panel.

BTW, @CalmedByFish posed the question, "Pond without electricity?" and got a number of suggestions. My reply includes details of my summer pond setup with solar fountain. 

[CalmedByFish]

Online, I found what appeared to be half-decent "fountains" advertised as being for bird baths. Some floated, with the solar panels on the floating pad. Others had a solar panel on a stake you could drive in the ground, with a cord leading to the pump that would need submerged a few inches underwater. Almost everything I looked at had reviews claiming that they didn't work without the panel being directed straight at the mid-day sun. I'm guessing a little water movement is better than no water movement though. The more expensive ones included a battery that would charge in the sun, and keep the water flowing a bit after sunset. 

Personally, I ended up deciding to put it in shade, and load the surface with hornwort to put oxygen in the water. (But I haven't actually done it yet.)

[Fish Folk]

@TheDukeAnumber1 we've recently ordered a few native species from Jonah's Aquarium. Mark does very good, timely shipping. He publishes regular updated native species lists. We've gotten Rainbow Darters, Florida Flagfish, and Okefenokee Pygmy Sunfish from him. All healthy.

Now . . . for a touch of crazy . . . if you want us to catch you some wild Gambusia . . . things can be arranged . . .

[TheDukeAnumber1]

@Anita

No I love that level of information thank you so much 🙂 . I do have a heart for US natives even if they are not local natives, personally I find the "beauty" to be in natures design even if the fish is bland looking, but I also want fish on the approved list on the thought that I may......hesitant to share... but I fish a few times a year and culling some by bait fishing may happen and I want to be legal in that respect. Fun info, I have harvested Southern Redbelly Dace in IL before, maybe not native but they are down here. So do you have any thoughts on what a good hardy mosquito murderer would be on that list?

My hope for the fountain is for it to oxygenate the water when the pond gets hit with direct sun. I just want to avoid cooked fish on that 90deg day in full sun. I'm not worried about the plants since atm I am planning on just maintaining some floating plants. Thanks again I have a lot to dig into now!

 

@Fish Folk

Thanks for the link, and noted, I have some reading to do now but perhaps we will have to arrange something.

[PlaneFishGuy]

@TheDukeAnumber1 my understanding with mosquito fish is that they don't really do much against the actual mosquitos but they do well at attacking the larvae. I think its more of a preventative measure than a cure to an existing problem.  

[Celly Rasbora]

I decided to try a tub this year, inspired by all y’all. I bought a solar powered air pump on Amazon. So far so good. It has 20 hour battery storage and is highly rated. 

[Anita]

On 4/20/2021 at 7:15 AM, TheDukeAnumber1 said:

@Anita

No I love that level of information thank you so much 🙂 . I do have a heart for US natives even if they are not local natives, personally I find the "beauty" to be in natures design even if the fish is bland looking, but I also want fish on the approved list on the thought that I may......hesitant to share... but I fish a few times a year and culling some by bait fishing may happen and I want to be legal in that respect. Fun info, I have harvested Southern Redbelly Dace in IL before, maybe not native but they are down here. So do you have any thoughts on what a good hardy mosquito murderer would be on that list?

Sorry, I spaced out and forgot to answer your question. Juggling so many balls at once right now, haha!

I do not have personal experience with native fishes. That said, while looking up references about Gambusia, I found multiple articles suggesting that native fish are as good as Gambusia—reference 1, reference 2—and one concluding that native fish are better at controlling mosquitoes! 🦟

Guppies are omnivores that feed in all three water layers (top, middle, bottom), so you might not expect them to go after floating mosquito eggs/larvae. However, in my personal experience, guppies do an excellent job of mosquito (not to mention algae)  control in my outdoor setup. With a dozen guppies, I never see a single wriggler in my 130 gallon pond. 😁

Putting these various pieces of information together, I think you do not need to focus on a particular top-feeder or insectivore. But rather, I expect any small, omnivorous fish will do the trick for you. 🦈

Edited April 25, 2021 by Anita

[YIACrazy]

So the suggestion is not to run a sponge filter? For the season? I was going to do an outdoor pond with a large sponge filter and a nano usb air pump.

[Eric R]

On 4/19/2021 at 10:44 PM, Fish Folk said:

@TheDukeAnumber1 we've recently ordered a few native species from Jonah's Aquarium. Mark does very good, timely shipping. He publishes regular updated native species lists. We've gotten Rainbow Darters, Florida Flagfish, and Okefenokee Pygmy Sunfish from him. All healthy.

Now . . . for a touch of crazy . . . if you want us to catch you some wild Gambusia . . . things can be arranged . . .

I just realized I think I have the same tank that's in this picture. 3.5 gallon plastic(or acrylic?) half moon tank, right? Comes with the weakest color changing LED in the lid and a small hob?

[Eric R]

5 hours ago, YIACrazy said:

So the suggestion is not to run a sponge filter? For the season? I was going to do an outdoor pond with a large sponge filter and a nano usb air pump.

Some people do, some don't. If you'd like to, I don't see any reason not to, and there are plenty of reasons to do so. Extra filtration and aeration (almost?) never hurt.

[Fish Folk]

27 minutes ago, ererer said:

I just realized I think I have the same tank that's in this picture. 3.5 gallon plastic(or acrylic?) half moon tank, right? Comes with the weakest color changing LED in the lid and a small hob?

Correct... bought it to transport these “guppies” — or so we thought — only to learn they were Mosquito Fish. They lived a long while in a little 5.5 gal. We only caught females, but months and months in, one dropped a fry. They’re the fiercest little fish we’ve ever kept. Major wolf pack!

 

[JSP]

On your last question, I have not tubbed US Natives, but I have a 420 gallon in ground pond where I have had 20+ Rosy Red Minnows for a year now in Missouri.  Have never seen mosquito larvae in the pond, but have scooped some larvae out of a tub to feed them and the rosy reds go nuts for them.  Rosy reds are technically a color phase of fathead minnows and on the approved list in both IL and MO.  Rosy reds at box box stores run about 20 cents apiece, but they tend to be cared for like bait fish so buy only when the tank is free of diseased or dead fish, if possible ...  Mine are starting to spar and presumably spawning right now.  I’d recommend them over mosquito fish since they are omnivorous and will also work on the algae.  In addition they are not reportedly fin nippers like Gambusia are described to be.

[L_goodei200]

For natives,  the ones that are on that list, that are best suited for a tub would be: Central Mudminnow (as long as you don't actually want to see it), Redfin Shiner, Red Shiner, Spotfin Shiner, Steelcolor Shiner, Bluntnose, Fathead (or Rosy Red), and Bullhead Minnows, Tadpole madtom (again, not likely to see this one), Blackstripe and Blackspotted Topminnows, Mosquitofish, Orangespotted Sunfish, Slough and Johnny Darters, and maybe Orangethroat Darter (they sometimes occur in intermittent streams).