SRBetta

Well. We pretty much started the water over from scratch since the beginning of this thread. Used Fritz Guard and Fritz Turbo 700 two days in a row and after days of testing every 6 hours. We've finally got this (see pic below) The cycle is kind of slow, and information out there is saying we should see Ammonia drop to 0 within 24 hours. But with a current 48 hour turnaround, we're happy with this. Going to grab some Pygmy Corys tomorrow at Aquarium Fish Depot in San Diego and then monitor the parameters closely afterwards. However, I might do the QT-trio in the 3gal QT tank setup I pieced together with an emergency tank from Petco. Next will be the Betta and soon after a 20+ gallon aquascaped setup for some other Nano fish. Really excited. I still can't stop ordering stuff...

Appreciate the responses above. 24 hour update: Mostly the same, although we had Ammonia drop 1ppm, but zero nitrite readings still. I know it was mentioned earlier that nitrite may never be found in testing... However, we ended up topping off the ammonia back up to 2ppm after dosing Fritz Turbo 700 since that arrived today. Going to test tomorrow and see... Again, we know we may never see nitrites pop up in testing.... But, and here's the biggest caveat I never mentioned out of sheer embarrassment and complete rookie mistake. When I had originally setup the tank, I did not Prime the water prior to adding to the tank. So we setup the tank, planted everything. Added in 5 gallons of water to bring it to half, ensured everything we planted in the substrate stayed, making adjustments as needed. Then I topped off the tank. Then I added Prime to the water. Ever since then, with this in the back of my mind, I realized, I may have killed any and all bacteria with chlorine starting from the first hour of tank setup. This is why I have been testing so much and had to superficially add ammonia to the tank and just been relentlessly trying to visually see bacteria in the tank via repeated testing. The plants just have not been doing so hot either. Which, we understand may be melting, but it could also be straight chlorine death. The fact that I dosed 9x the normal dose of Flourish on accident a couple days ago with no algae bloom, but more diatom growth also makes me believe there is still chlorine present. Won't know till we can figure this out. Might have to start from scratch and at the end of the day, was just a $180 plant and substrate loss. A mistake I hopefully won't recreate in the future. For whatever reason, it seems to be hard to find chlorine or chloramine test kits. I see Sera sells a kit, but I hate mismatched things (Binning Seachem Prime, Stability, Flourish, Flourish Excel and several meds from them all for the Fritz I have ordered two days ago, only thing mismatched is the Easy Green and the Dr. Tim's Ammonia). My water district uses chloramine for it's final disinfection with a range of ND - 3.5ppm with an average of 1.8. Would really like to test those values.

So my wife and I are talking about this actively. This is where this whole topic got so condensed with me being so technical, she has a MS in Bio-Chemistry. Soooo, that's why I been in the middle of this and going all out crazy with numbers of certain parameters... She likes the numbers and it helps her understand where our tank sits, which in turns helps keep me in check from ordering random things. Example, since the beginning of this post and before I even got to read the first 4 responses. I had scoured the internet and ordered Fritz Guard, Turbo 700, parts of the trio for QT and now scouring for a 2.5gal QT tank, heater and air pump (If I do not settle for the nano pump offered from here). I have already sent her that excerpt of the brief history of Prime and she's been breaking it down to me. Ammonium is the less toxic form of Ammonia. So, that is where you get the ammonium from, the ammonia. Both companies use the chemical Sodium Formaldehydesulfoxylate (SFS). That binds with Ammonia NH3, creating chemical aminomethansulfonate (AMS) and turns the Ammonia into Ammonium NH4. For a lack of better explanation, a "non-toxic salt." Seachem however does not disclose the use of SFS, however a lot of what is written in that deeply detailed excerpt, shows that it can't be anything otherwise. In the past they have disclosed that used Sulfur Dioxide and Sulfur Thiosulfate in the past, but no longer uses those chemicals. Fritz holds the patent for it, so for Prime to even available to the market, they had to add an extra molecule (which I do not know at this time of writing) to put their product out. Seachem only claims that Prime binds to ammonia and creates a non-toxic form of ammonia that free-floats within the water column. Fritz however, claims that Complete binds to ammonia to change it into a solid and locks it indefinitely.

Maybe i'm not understanding your response to Scapexghost, but the API Ammonia test kit tests for both Ammonia and Ammonium, so there's no way to discern which of the two you have. You either have it or don't. It's weird because Prime and Complete are technically the same thing. I know you do not have Fritz availability, but check these two statements from them out: Seachem Prime: How long does Prime® stay bound to the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates? A: Prime® will bind up those compounds for up to 48 hours. If they are still present after that time frame, they are released back into the water, unless Prime® is re-dosed accordingly. Also, if your ammonia or nitrite levels are increasing within a 24-hour period, Prime® can be re-dosed every 24 hours. Fritz Complete: Does the ammonia or nitrite get released back after a certain amount of time? No, the water conditioner does not only temporarily bind the toxic ammonia or nitrite, and won't be released back into the water column after any period of time. The detoxified ammonia and nitrite are removed by nitrification or water changes.

This was vastly helpful and spun a good perspective on it all. Our plants are currently melting like crazy, but I have faith in them. Especially with that accidental overdose of 9x the amount of fertilizer I need (dosed 6.75ml of Seachem Flourish..... in the 9 gallon Fluval Flex. 😅). Lost a couple already, but I think the tank was under fertilized (was doing once a week, via label instructions). Going to start this week better off. Definitely have a mega bottle of Easy Green in the shopping cart, and literally how I came across the co-op in the first place.

Out of curiosity, what if you tested for nitrite at the 6 hour mark? My wife has me testing every 6 hours, she wants to see an emergence of each stage ( i tested Ammonia at the 10 minute mark after adding, the 3 hours mark to verify, and then the 6 hour mark to double check). But the issue is that we never saw Ammonia to begin with. Now that we've added it superficially, we're not seeing Nitrite or Nitrates, either. True... We're just trying to spot when our bacterial colony starts. I don't want to do a fish-in cycle, but I am starting to think I should. It's just weird how the tank is acting right now, here's some closeups of the "life" we have and I can't help but imagine there HAS to be a bacterial colony that has developed in here already. I can only assume that bacteria to break down the Ammonia have began to emerge, but not getting any readings from the Nitrite. I know it sounds very impatient. It's just weird how I woke up to the stench of rotting fish everywhere due to the Hikari Krill being broken down after sitting in the tank for 2 weeks, but confused how there were no ammonia traces until I had to superficially add it.

Regarding dechlorinators, my biggest confusion stemmed from Frtiz's claim as I quoted above, "Chemical ammonia removers work by converting poisonous ammonia to non-toxic compounds. Nitrifying bacteria may not be able to utilize some of these compounds. The use of ammonia removers will only prolong the time needed to establish the biofilter." Prior to this, I always believed the same as you say, and Seachem even states it on the bottle and on their website, "Prime® does not remove ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate from the system. It simply binds with those compounds making them harmless to the inhabitants and still bioavailable to the beneficial bacteria." So if Prime and Complete are practically the same compounds, sans one molecule for patent-dodging. Then I can safely revert back to my original thoughts before this whole rabbit hole occurred haha. However Fritz also further makes the claim about Complete not being suitable with Ich-X in the Med Trio. "Fritz Complete - NOT SAFE; this is a sulfoxylate-based conditioner and can affect the medication" This is where I decided, "If I can't get my bacteria to convert my Ammonia to Nitrite for some reason, perhaps I should follow what Fritz said about their Complete converting/detoxifying Ammonia to a state that cannot be consumed and nitrified to Nitrite and just stick with Fritz Guard...?" As for quarantine. I might just throw my cleanup crew straight into the main tank and let them go ham. But I also don't want to introduce whatever parasites they may have into my system. Still deciding. Overall, I greatly appreciate your time and your response. 🤙 pH: 7.8 GH: 196.9 dKH: 6 I have, in my Aquarium Co-op shopping cart, a Medium Sponge Filter that I will prime in my main tank and use for a smaller quarantine tank. So I got that covered. Didn't think of cleaning a filter in the QT tank too and allowing the sponge filter to clean that up. I have a large pre-filter/polishing sponge that I could do that with, but that thing was CAKED thick with stuff after a week. Was pretty gnarly. We'll see what happens when I hit that stage though. Thank you so much for your help! 👌 1) Yeah my wife looked at me funny when I tried to explain that Nitrates are converted into Ammonia. She clarified that mixup real quick... haha. 2) The Trio QT system they have sure is solid. I will definitely be giving it go prior to the addition of new additions to the tank. 3) After a few hours of research on the subject, I was weary of using salt for Bettas, but again, my wife says that a lot of Betta keepers use salt to treat it, still... I used to use the salt method and heat with fancy goldfish, but they're the opposite of Bettas. Tolerating salt, hates heat vs Bettas that love heat but hate salt. 4) It was just something I thought of, I managed to capture some closeup videos of the stuff I saw on my glass. Just looks like a bunch of odd little parasites of different sizes and shapes running around. So I figured I dope Excel-P in just to be safe, prior to throwing any livestock in. 5) I try not to.... But I get super paranoid sometimes haha. The biggest issue as I mentioned in response to Scapexghost I have right now is that after 48 hours, I can't get my bacteria to convert my Ammonia to Nitrite for some reason. So I am trying to figure out if I have a bacteria issue.... 🤔 Appreciate your help and feedback! ✌️ Cory! Wow! Thank you for the response. I don't know whatsoever and why, I have never seen that video you embedded. I have searched and read on this subject so much with confusion. Yet I never seen that video in my searches. Going to watch it with the wife as we eat dinner shortly. The tank has many layers of... A lot of things. Diatoms, 1cm thick bio-films, little parasitic things around the glass I can't identify. I feel like it's fully "cycled" but as I mentioned to the above responses, I can't get my bacteria to convert my Ammonia to Nitrite for some reason. It has been 48 hours, maybe it takes longer? It's been two weeks since I set up the tank, I ghost fed it heavily for a few days. To the point that the tank was reeking a putrid fishy smell of rot this morning. So I did a 50% water change and everything seems much better. However, I was still not getting any Ammonia readings. At all. For whatever reason unbeknownst to me. So, we used some Dr. Tim's Ammonia to get it to 3ppm, and that's where I am now. 0 Nitrite 48 hours later. I may have screwed that up a bit with the 50% WC today... I don't know. I dosed a ton of API Quick Start just to help, Seachem Stability just wasn't working. Possibly due to what I had mentioned in the OP, "Chemical ammonia removers work by converting poisonous ammonia to non-toxic compounds. Nitrifying bacteria may not be able to utilize some of these compounds. The use of ammonia removers will only prolong the time needed to establish the biofilter." - Fritz. So I assumed maybe Prime converted the Ammonia to a compound unusable to the bacteria colony, if I even have one. It's just odd how Fritz runs circles with their Complete and treatments, and how it's supposedly the same as Seachem Prime, yet when it comes down to certain things, they claim opposing things. Fritz saying Complete will detoxify Ammonia and Nitrite indefinitely, and Seachem saying Prime can only detoxify it for up to 48 hours. Or Seachem saying Prime only detoxifies Ammonia/Nitrite and bacteria can still consume it. Whereas, Fritz says that it might not be able to be consumed. Anyway, here's some parameters. Ammonia: 3ppm Nitrite: 0 Nitrate: 0 pH: 7.6 GH: 196.9 dKH: 6 I have been fighting to drop the pH level down to the 7 mark, but it won't budge. I was doing daily doses of Flourish Excel, but I am going to stop that as the wife said it might being doing more bad than good. So if I can come back to this forum begging to figure out a fix for a tanking pH, which I now assume is crushed corals, I might be in a better state than I am now? Again, I appreciate your response Cory. Thank you so much. 🤘

Hello everyone, first post and have settled with Aquarium Co-op as my goto for supplies. Everything just seems more straightforward and to the point than other retailers and (v/b)loggers. With that said, after 2 days of straight research on how to cycle a tank and quarantining fish. My migraines are killing me. Facebook, Reddit, Discord, and finally here, my mind is jam packed and it's all blurring together. Of the several huge long winded questions I have to ask, my biggest three right now are: 1) Fritz Guard versus Fritz Complete or Seachem Prime, which the latter two seem to be the exact same thing a part from a single molecule. 2) Quarantine and sticking to Fritz Guard. 3) Treating your main/display tank plus cycling with Fritz Expel-P and/or others just to be sure. This all started with being recommended FritzZyme TurboStart 700 after just under two weeks of failed ability to get a bacterial colony to feed off Ammonia with Seachem Stability, and as of 24 hours ago, API Quick Start. _______________________ First, from what I understand is the cycle starts with Ammonia (NH3), which is nitrified by Nitrifying Bacteria (or I guess what most call or refer to as Beneficial Bacteria or "BB" to further shorten). This turns into Nitrite (NO2-) and then Nitrified into Nitrate (NO3-) and then the cycle starts all over again with Nitrate being broken down into Ammonia, albeit, at much much greater exponential speed. Fritz Complete and Seachem Prime have had several claims that have been changed in translation, but all came down to making Ammonia and Nitrites detoxified and safe for the environment. Going back to FritzZyme TurboStart 700, the FAQs state: "Chlorine must be removed before adding FritzZyme® (chlorine kills bacteria). FritzGuard® or Fritz Chlorine Remover may be used for this purpose." Fritz Chlorine Remover is currently only sold in gallon jugs and highly concentrated for ponds, so that's out of the question. So let's check the FAQ section for Fritz Complete. "Chemical ammonia removers work by converting poisonous ammonia to non-toxic compounds. Nitrifying bacteria may not be able to utilize some of these compounds. The use of ammonia removers will only prolong the time needed to establish the biofilter." Okay, well. That might be the answer as to why I was unable to see my Ammonia even turn into Nitrites when using Seachem Prime. _______________________ Further compounding on top of all this, as I said at the opening, Aquarium Co-op is straightforward and just gets it done. So what about quarantining my fish prior to introduction to the main tank. The Trusted Trio: Fritz ParaCleanse, Aquarium Solutions Ich-X, and Fritz Mardel Maracyn. So this is a 1 week crucible where we get to test the hardiness and put Darwin's Survival of the Fittest to the test. While one week of not performing a water change is doable, I have never gone a week without feeding a fish, so we'll see how that goes. Although, "(If you feel you must feed your fish, wait until Day 4 or 5, and then only feed them very lightly.)". Anyway, back to the chemicals we're dealing with and the topic at hand. Both on Aquarium Co-op's blog and their vlog with Irene, neither mentioned conditioning the water prior to quarantine. So one would safely assume, it needs to be done, especially with tap water. People using RO or RODI water already been doing their own method for this stage and know what to treat their water with and that's a whole different beast in itself, so we'll skip that. Back to the AQ-CO-OP QT crucible and we'll just safely assume, lets use Fritz Complete or Seachem Prime. Well, despite searches on here about the exact topic, people have said they've used the combo safely. However, one of the products from Hikari Aquarium Solutions Ich-X is not suitable with Fritz Complete, in theory, so; back to the FAQs: Fritz Complete - NOT SAFE; this is a sulfoxylate-based conditioner and can affect the medication However: Fritz Guard - SAFE; this is a thiosulfate conditioner and won't affect the medication So, it's clear we should play it safe with Fritz Guard. But, now we're dealing with NH3 and NO2- for a week of quarantine, hopefully the primed sponger filter from the main tank has enough BB to get these down to a livable condition, otherwise we're (re?)introducing stressors and creating the very conditions suitable for Ich, one of the very reasons to quarantine to begin with. Glossing back over to the other two chemicals: Fritz ParaCleanse - Do not perform water changes during the course of treatment. ParaCleanse may inhibit nitrifying bacteria. If ammonia or nitrite is a concern, detoxify during treatment with Fritz A.C.C.R. or Fritz Complete. No contraindications: can be used with all of our other products and meds. Again, I guess we'll stick to Fritz Guard and let the primed sponge filter take the wheel. Fritz Mardel Maracyn - Do not perform water changes during the course of treatment. ParaCleanse may inhibit nitrifying bacteria. If ammonia or nitrite is a concern, detoxify during treatment with Fritz A.C.C.R. or Fritz Complete. No contraindications: can be used with all of our other products and meds. Pretty much the same stuff here, The FAQs on Maracyn and ParaCleanse go into some real great depth, but all seem to be non-related to the quarantine tasking at hand. In the end, it circles back to the above. What am I missing about all-in-one conditioning versus a chlorine/chloramine specific conditioner? _______________________ My tank appears to have planaria at the very at least. So I need to get Fritz Expel-P in there ASAP while they're still little. It's a planted aquarium, the only living organisms in there that aren't parasites or bacteria are two Bladder Snails that have seemed to hitched some rides with the plants I picked up. I'm grateful for them as I have an insane amount of diatoms that have sprouted all over and i'll probably have the world's biggest algae bloom ever witnessed as I accidentally dosed 9 times over the required dose of Seachem Flourish Fertilizer........ Don't ask, i'm horrible at math. Those snails are going to be working overtime and i'm glad they seem to find each other and do "the dance" several times an hour, because they're going to need help. Prior to my 1 week treatment of Expel-P, I will do a 50% water change, condition with Fritz Guard and dump the dosage of Expel-P in then pray for the best for my bacterial colony and such. _______________________ I apologize for the long winded post. If you have read everything. I greatly appreciate you. This has been a serious journey and i'm SEVERELY over budget, pushing 4 digits into this and I have YET to get any stocking. It's a Fluval Flex 9 gallon of all things, just a Betta, 6 Pygmy Cory's and a few shrimp will be the plan. I will see this through... At this point, I went back, re-read everything, and I don't exactly know what my question is other than: What am I missing about all-in-one conditioning versus a chlorine/chloramine specific conditioner? If we need Beneficial/Nitrifying Bacteria, we need Ammonia. To make Ammonia, we need to make Nitrates. But to make Nitrates, we need to make Nitrites. So why are the leading water conditioners made to "expel" Ammonia and Nitrites? Has Fritz Guard been the underdog this whole time? My goal is to have less maintenance involvement and less water changes. But to do this, I need a fully cycled tank to get the cycle going for a self-sufficient ecosystem. Seachem prime and Fritz Complete seem to hinder that process. The only reason I can think of, is that most people do not actually get a fully cycled tank and so they rely on frequent water changes versus a bacterial colony to do the work? _______________________ Hardware List: Tank: Fluval Flex 9 w/ LidzPropzShop Spray Bar, Intake Snorkel Set, Acrylic Flip Lid Light: Fluval Plant 3.0 Nano Heater: Eheim Thermocontrol-E50 Substrate: Fluval Bio-Stratum Bio-Filter Media: Seachem Matrix, no carbon. Coarse sponge is stock in center, Pre-filter/Polisher in the heater sump-section. Plants: Bucephalandra Brownie, Anubias Barteri/Nana, Spikey Moss, Fissidens Nobilis Moss, Scarlet Temple, Bacopa, Hornwort, Amazon Frogbit, Water Spangle, Duckweeds. Hardscape: Sandblasted Ghost Wood & Seiyru Stones.