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  1. I’m 73 years old and very new to fishkeeping. For years I bred and showed mini wire haired dachshunds, conformation, obedience, rally, field trials and agility, Had the privilege of one of my girls going best in show. I was responsible for every puppy it’s entire life. As they can live 16-18 years I had to stop as at my age they could out live me and I can’t get around as before. So, a new hobby - fish keeping. Found AquariumCoop and You Cory. I am learning so much. Currently have a 10 gal with some mollies and Mickey Mouse platys were sold to me as mollies. One little fry that’s doing well. Tank is about four months old now, have added a number of live plants and sponge filter and have not changed water in three weeks although I did add a pitcher full yesterday to replace condensation. Test strips show all ok. I am now a believer in live plants. Thanks so much for the expert advice and encouragement I’m learning so much. I had a void when I had to stop showing my dogs but enjoying my fish so much. I sit on the floor for long periods of time and just watch them. They,re just great. I’m looking around for a larger tank for them. Thank you again Cory for all you do. Mary
    21 points
  2. This project has been in the works for months and I'm so excited to share it with everyone! I've done a lot of research on stand building and my husband took a one-on-one class from a master furniture maker in the area. So hopefully between those two things, this stand will turn out looking decent. First things first--the plan. I used SketchUp to render the plan in 3D. This was *immensely* helpful and I highly recommend anyone do this who's thinking of building a stand. You can get a 30 day free trial, which is plenty of time to do what you need. Front view: Back view: (No don't worry it won't be these colors--I'll explain the colors later.) My goal was for this stand to hold a 75 gallon on top and some 10 gallons length-wise on the bottom (with room above them to do maintenance), have a storage cabinet big enough for a 5 gallon bucket, and a middle shelf for storage. I also wanted it to look vaguely like a piece of furniture. Here's a sketch-up with a 55 on top and two 10 gallons and one 5 gallon on the bottom. There will be a door on the cabinet eventually, but that's something I can add later. I followed the basic strategy that the King of DIY outlines in his youtube videos. The weight of the aquariums must be supported directly on the stand's legs. So each of the six legs has two parts--an outer, solid piece that directly supports the weight of the top, and inner pieces that stack around the middle shelf, directly supporting the weight of the top frame. The top and bottom shelf have a frame underneath (edges in pink) with joists (brown) running front-to-back. The different colors represent different sizes of wood. We (read: my husband) used our neighbor's planer to plane 2x4's down in order to get rid of the rounded edge. We're hoping it makes the piece look more legit. Fuchsia is 3.5" by 1.125" Green is 2.75" by 1.5" Brown is a regular 2x4 (3.5" by 1.5") White is flat board--3/4" thick on the shelves, and 1/4" thick on the sides of the cabinet One reason we planed 2x4s instead of buying nicer wood without the curved edges is that we already had a ton of 2x4s lying around. Plus wood is really expensive right now! So using what we had made sense in a lot of ways. Today was a beautiful day so I cut all the pieces I'll need. I've never done all my cuts before starting assembly before, and there's no way I would have done it without the SketchUp plans. But I cut the pieces for the frame and then realized I didn't have the right screws, so I decided to keep cutting while I had energy and everything was set up. My work station: My work buddies: (In the background you can see the project that led to us having a ton of 2x4s: the chicken coop!) Here's all the wood that's going to go into the stand. It's a lot. This thing is going to be soooooo heavy.
    12 points
  3. Step one. if you have ammonia and don't have fish, STOP CLEANING. You do not have a cycled tank. You need to let the tank grow bacteria that will eat the ammonia. You need to leave them alone to do that. You don't really want "spotless" gravel. You don't want to be doing massive water changes. You want to see ammonia go down, and eventually nitrates to go UP. Then you can think about fish.
    12 points
  4. My partner has been working very hard to raise African Dwarf Frog tadpoles and we’ve finally got a small batch that have developed arms and legs. They’re being moved to a bigger tank that can have hopefully more stable water parameters. anyway they’re just so cool and adorable. We are really excited and wanted to share!
    11 points
  5. I set up a tank with an Iwagumi aquascape a few months ago. Due to FedEx screwing up my order, though, it never got actually planted and then turned solid green. It wasn't stocked, it only had a few plants in it, and I tore it down and rescaped it. The new vision is to have a pea puffer tank, but I'm waiting on the pea puffers. I have one who currently resides in a 6.8g on my nightstand, and as soon as I can find 2 females to go in with him in this 20g, it will truly be a Pea Puffer's Paradise. Its current inhabitant is a betta named Azumi Equipment: Aqueon 20g high Eheim Jager 100w heater Tidal 35 filter Amazon DIY CO2 kit (citric acid & baking soda) Hardscape: Spiderwood Okho Stone (dragonstone) Fluval Stratum Estes Stoney River Sand Plants: Cabomba Caroliniana Java Fern Christmas Moss Süßwassertang Anubias Heterophylla Bolbitis Heudelotii Bolbitis Heteroclita Difformis (mini) Bolbitis Heteroclita We finished scaping and planting it at nearly midnight, so the attached photo is Day 2
    10 points
  6. I've just recently gotten into the hobby, and right now I've got a 10 gallon with a female betta and some inverts, a small tub i'm using as a nursery for some spore-lings and cuttings from other plants in my aquarium, and a larger tub I'm starting to turn into an indoor mini-pond! I've recently returned to college and have little to no free time, but doing all of these little start ups that can grow over time has been great! I'm a bio major and can't help but read articles about fish physiology and water parameters, I hope to learn a lot and one day play around with some tricky-to-breed fish.
    10 points
  7. "With the lights out, it's less dangerousHere we are now, quarantine usI feel sluggish and contagiousHere we are now, quarantine us.......yeah A mbunaA mollyA mosquitoMy gourami ......yeah"
    10 points
  8. I figure I might start a new post for me asides the usual fish list that I do weekly. To start off I want to give a little perspective on this post. One thing I really enjoy while working at the Aquarium Co-Op is seeing a fish that stops me in my tracks. This happens at least once a week where I pretty much have to stop what I am doing and just take a moment to take in the beauty of the fish and if lucky snap a good picture of it. Sometimes its a new fish that came in like a sweet betta or sometimes its something that's been sitting around for a while but just finally gained its full colors like a Bolivian Ram. My plan is to take a photo at least once a week of a fish that catches my eye and highlight it for you all to enjoy. For the first post, the fish that caught my eye this week and is looking exceptionally awesome is a Bolivian Ram in the shop 75 gallon display tank. This guy is in full color mode out of the group of 8 in that tank. Maybe its because of the slight heat wave we are experiencing in the Puget Sound or the great mix of live baby brine and quality frozen food, this ram made me stop in my tracks on Saturday and I would like to share these pictures with everyone.
    10 points
  9. When you came up with an idea on the suggestions box thread that got implemented
    10 points
  10. Marine Aquarium Photos . . . NC Aquarium. I swear the divers were scraping algae 🤣
    10 points
  11. More NC Aquarium photos . . .
    10 points
  12. Here's my humpback limias. Not the most colorful little guys but the males have a neat shape. They're pretty amusing to watch spar and dance for the girls. They get a nice golden yellow hue to their tails and bellies once mature. They're not always so hidey, they just don't much like the camera. Their faces are pretty cute too. Above the 29 I keep a 40 breeder with blue wag platies. I like the blue but I'm thinking more and more that I want to add more colors and mix it up. Platies come in so many gorgeous colors I just want them all. This is an old pic, apparently I don't take pics of the 40 much (unless it's of my catfish, who's since moved out to the 75 but that's another story).
    9 points
  13. Selected shots from birding the last week or so . . . Western Willet, Forster's Tern, Red-winged Blackbird, Blue-gray Gnatcatcher.
    9 points
  14. Could we please get a 😍 reaction, for when we see a pretty fish, fish doing something cute, or even a stunning scape? I get why we dont have like a trillion different reactions, but one more couldn't hurt, right?
    9 points
  15. The dojo's I have frequently rest upon my E-Series heaters. Figured it was a good opportunity for some new photos. With a bonus of pleco bellies.
    8 points
  16. The little brother enjoys sharing about some new fish in our tanks. Okefenokee Pygmy Sunfish are very chill unless a male is courting a female. Mark from Jonah's Aquarium did an amazing job shipping these, along with other US Natives.
    8 points
  17. This is my first attempt at a SW tank. I am adding all sorts of life forms from Puget Sound, Washington State. The humble beginnings: Currently aiming for a stable 55F environment and waiting for the dust to settle. Had a molting from one of the amphipods. Well, I thought mystery snails were the only ones with more of a penchant for relocation, until I just saw the clam decided to try a new spot in the tank (and out of view, of course). I know he is there because I can see him from the top, but the little stinker has made it impossible for me to get a side view. I guess they all want to redecorate at some point. The snails and amphipods have pretty much decimated the green tuft seaweed. Littorina scutulata and several amphipods and copepods. Algae: Sarcodiotheca gaudichaudii, Cladophora columbiana, Prionitis lanceolata, Fucus gardneri, Alaria marginata. The tank today: I am also documenting this in YT so I can remember what things looked like once a transition has taken place. Please bear in mind that I do have a goofy sense of humour, so some of the videos are kind of wacky.
    8 points
  18. I had forgotten about that, thanks @quirkylemon103! Here is the guppy video:
    8 points
  19. Here’s some shots from today’s birding. Several were too far for a very good shot (woodpecker, warbler, egret). Lens only goes up to 300 mm. From top to bottom we have: Red Headed Woodpecker Prothonotary Warbler Cattle Egret Royal Tern (look closely! It’s banded on right leg!) Double Crested Cormorant
    8 points
  20. @Cory I can’t thank you enough for this amazing product. It’s really made my plant hobby fun for me. Rock on plant keepers!🪴🌱
    8 points
  21. In a 10x12 below grade basement I wound up with 9 20 tall, 3 20 long, 6 29 gallon tanks, and space on the other wall for a big tank I’m still waiting for (a spare 55 is holding the space). Here is a rundown of what I used and some lessons I learned. For stands, the cinder block racks are super easy to set up and very sturdy. They are also modular if I decide to change things around. For tanks, I used solely Aqueon tanks from Petco’s dollar per gallon sale. Can’t really go wrong with cheap tanks in a fish room. Filtration- Central air pump connected to a 1 inch pvc pipe loop around the room. This is where I started making mistakes. I first dry fit the whole loop, which made it very hard to pull it all apart and glue the connections. This led to some leaking connections which I patched with silicone. I first bought the smallest linear piston air pump offered by Aquarium Co-Op, which was undersized for the size of the air loop I had running (that or the leaking connections) and got no airflow to the tanks. I lucked out and found a Jehmco LA-120, an air pump with enough flow to run 100+ tanks, which gave me way too much flow, which I solved by just adding a bunch of extra valves (I later discovered Jehmco sells a bleed off valve for exactly that situation...). All of the tanks are running sponge filters of various manufacturers to try out. The overflow system- oh boy here’s where things got complicated. The basement is below grade, and I couldn’t tap into the waste line or modify the existing plumbing. So I used a laundry sink sump basin and pump running into 1 inch flexible pipe routed out of a basement air vent to the back of the house, where the aquarium waste water will be used to water the garden. This could have been so much easier if I had been able to drill the foundation and run a 10ft section of pipe, but hey whatever works, works. I also ran a pex line from the washing machine connections by adding Y connector to each fitting for hot/cold water to a laundry sink without modifying the existing plumbing. The overflow on each tank is a simple bulkhead and pvc elbow with a barb fitting connected to a bit of flex pipe, which in turn drains to a length of 2” pipe into the sump. A few other lessons I learned here - use 3” for a drain line, I don’t think it will be a problem but I’ll have to limit the flow into the tanks. As far as the flex pipe- I originally used poly tubing, but getting the kinks out of the thick clear tubing is a nightmare-I found out that the 1/2 inch irrigation tubing for garden sprinklers is dirt cheap and way easier to work with. Also buy a quality hole saw to drill into the large PVC pipe, I ruined a few cheap bits. As far as drilling the tanks themselves, I originally used cheap diamond hole saw bits that took forever for each tank before just spending a bit extra on a decent bit that made it way faster. I used a bit of plywood with a hole drilled as a template, clamping it to the tank to start the hole in the same position on every tank. I then removed the template when the hole was started, used plumbers putty to make a dam around the hole and filled it with water - way quicker and easier on the bit if it’s lubricated full time. All of the tanks were drilled without more than minor chip out on the edges of the hole, it’s super easy. Lids for the tanks; I had a few glass lids, but I wound up using polycarbonate greenhouse panels, which worked out to about $6/lid. I used a table saw to make long cuts and a box cutter to cut the horizontal sections, and colored duct tape to seal the edges and form hinges or handles. All in, including renovating the room with insulation and paint and such, I probably spent about $2500-$3000 on the whole room, with probably $500 being wasted on mistakes or unnecessary things. I still need to add some reflective barrier to the ceiling and setup a sprinkler timer and lines to each tank for the auto water change system. I also need to find a lighting solution that won’t break the bank or take up all my outlets.
    8 points
  22. So how many of us tell ourselves I won’t spend any more money on aquarium stuff this month? I told myself this a couple weeks ago and then I get an email from buceplant that something on my wishlist is available and I got first shot at it (a total ploy I’m sure 🤣) so $60 later some hygrophila compacta an extra bucephalandra Godzilla and a sword red runner later. Then I thought well I’ll read up some stuff on aquarium co op and had to check out some fish food since I ordered some reticulated hillstream loaches from my LFS so repashy soilent green, sure better be ready for them right? Since I’m ordering might as well check out some plants while I’m here, I’m already paying for shipping 🤷🏼‍♂️ Well how about some anubias and pearl weed. Oh then there’s amazon and some smart plugs for my lighting 🤦‍♂️ Hope I have enough food in the freezer.
    8 points
  23. I was doing some tank maintenance today and I felt I should make a post just because it's been a while! I've been in a funk, but I'm pulling myself out of it, and I think getting back in the swing of things here on the forum will help. So anyways, this little guy is an immature male humpback limia in my 29. All the other boys pick on him, so he usually stays by himself in the front of the tank. I guess because he doesn't shoal with everyone else, he's gotten pretty used to me and usually comes over to say hi. Eventually he'll mature and I probably won't be able to tell him apart from the others, but for now I call him Beavis. None of the tanks needed a water change this week, especially Bean's tank (his never does since he creates such a tiny bio load), so I mostly just tidied up his tank and trimmed the plants in the others. Bean's tank is typically more messy from all the snail shells and algae, since I can't keep anything in there with him as a janitor. It's got black beard algae and some really hard red algae growing on the rocks and back wall. I'm ok with it since to me it just looks natural and I don't worry about keeping pristine tanks. Took some pics of before and after but there's a lot of glare. Before with all the snail shells at the bottom. After. Little better. I'm trying to grow this tripartia clover stuff (I'm too lazy to go look up the right name, you guys know what I'm talking about) and so far it's not very happy. I'm dosing Easy Green but maybe it's one of those softer water types and Bean's water is higher Ph. I'd like SOME sort of lighter green to brighten up his tank but he might be stuck with a spoopy dark menacing look. Maybe it's fitting. Red algae, black beard algae, HAIR ALGAE... just all the algaes. Plus java moss from a million years ago.
    8 points
  24. I'm the worst for this.... bought my daughters each a 1 gallon tank for Easter. Started researching fish, found out 1 gallons suck, so found a 30 gal used online, cleaned it up. My wife wanted it so we upgraded the girls to a 30 gal as well so they had more option. Did more research (the key problem) started to really gain interest in the hobby myself, so bought a 60 gal. Why get a 30 for the bedroom when a 60 is only $100 more. Went looking for fish on a local FB group found a guy rehoming cichlids I was looking for so contacted him. Turns out he is getting away from the hobby and wants to get rid of his whole setup... I asked how much (big mistake). $400 FOR AN ENTIRE 150 GALLON SETUP!!! So now before my 60 gallon is even finished being set up I now own a 150 as well. Went from 2 gallons of fish real estate to 272 gallons in less than 2 weeks. Research (and co-op videos) crested a monster.
    8 points
  25. Hello from Irmo S.C. I just recently got started in the hobby. It all started because my wife ordered a moss ball. After she got it she put it in a container and realized she wanted a Beta to go with it. The next day I saw the glass container wasn't big enough to keep a fish happy. I went to Petsmart and bought the Top Fin 5 gallon aquarium and within a month I was hooked and started a 75 gallon. I just started this adventure a month ago and I found Aquarium Co-Op and KGTtropicals on youtube and they inspired me to go full in on this hobby. I am looking forward to learning a lot from this forum. Thank you in advance for the answers to the questions that I have.
    8 points
  26. I would not bleach it! I have used old wood in tanks after years.
    8 points
  27. Just out shopping, and thought I’d start a thread about “random aquarist items from the grocery store.” Snapped a few photos. (1) Rooibos Tea — excellent source for limited tannins. For heavy tint, 1x bag / gallon for 24 hrs. We use for Killifish eggs to cut down on fungus. Smells nice in the fishroom! (2) Clorox — for cleaning certain items, like shells, Diffusers, etc. kills off algae. MUST be treated with plenty dechlorinator in fresh water before using in Aquarium again. Still, it has its place. (3) Cupboard Liners — we use these under LED lights to diffuse lights when too bright. Easy to cut to fit. Also helpful underneath smaller tanks to keep them from slipping. (4) Measuring Cups — We prefer plastic, but glass cleans off really well. Many uses. Mixing frozen food with tank water, pouring room-temp water over black worms, etc. (5) Cooking Baster — great for sucking up, feeding, etc. cheaper at a grocery than aquarium store. (6) Skewers — We use to gently stir up gravel for limited-space vacuuming with small tube / siphon when normal gravel vac is too disruptive, risks sucking up fry, etc (trick learned from Rachel O’Leary — she used chopsticks) (7) Sealed Lid Storage Containers — We are learning that the best way to keep dry food fresh is to refrigerate bottles inside a zip-locked bag inside a sealed-lid storage container. That’s 4-steps to ensure freshness: fridge, closed container, sealed bag, and sealed lid. Next time you’re in the grocery, I’d love to learn what you use!
    7 points
  28. Hi all Has anyone had experience with selling on aqua bid? My main aquarium is a 125 gal planted community tank which is heavily planted with Anubis barteri and Java fern. I have had this tank set up for many years, which has let the Anubis & Java fern become well established. (some might say overgrown 😀) I want to slowly add more plant diversity and open space to my aquarium. Prior to COVID I would take excess plants to my local club, but currently we are not having in person meetings. Has anyone had any experience with selling on Aqua bid? In particular shipping plants like Anubis and Java fern . I have purchased live food starters from Aqua bid, but I have never sold anything. Any insight would be much appreciated.
    7 points
  29. @darkG you inspired me.
    7 points
  30. So, I’m making my first patio pond! Can’t tell you how excited I am. My VERY handy husband built me a box to put a 40 gallon breeder on the porch. Its got a window in it so I can see what is going on inside, once it gets rolling. Will post photos as it gets put together!! What are you all doing this warmer season outside?
    7 points
  31. Took a Ferry Boat out to Shackelford Banks, N. C. to photograph some birds. Also enjoyed the company of wild horses that have lived here for many, many years -- some suggest since a Spanish ship wrecked on the coast, leaving them stranded here. Somehow they find fresh water and do just fine. The birds in order are: Sanderling, Marbled Godwit, and Wilson's Plover.
    7 points
  32. Don’t give up! Here’s our method for cycling: (1) Use a biologically activated substrate like Eco Complete — or, transfer substrate from a cycled tank. (2) Use Wood or Hardscape from inside a cycled tank. We buy wet wood from our LFS. (3) Use a primed sponge filter already full of bio. (4) Use tank water from a cycled tank. (5) Buy tons of live plants. They bring in bio. (6) Dump in Dr. Tim’s bio starter fluid. Then wait a day. Test water. Wait until Nitrates are increasing. Add fish.
    7 points
  33. Pretty rad foreground plant 😆
    7 points
  34. 7 points
  35. I drilled holes into the land portion above the filter, and then into the back of the enclosure. When the holes were drilled, I cut them out to allow the ends of the cords and tubing to fit. I strung them all through and attached them to one another so the aeration part of the filter would work properly, while looking less noticeable. I then cleaned up any excess foam and cut pieces of mesh to fill in the gaps. The mesh was then siliconed into place, and then another layer of silicone with substrate was added over it. I waited for plants to arrive in the meantime. When they did, I of course inspected them for any pests or issues. I went ahead and removed all of the soil, washed them off (I rubbed the roots, leaves, and stems off too in the process, made sure to get into the crevices of the plant as well), soaked them for 15 minutes in warm dechlorinated water, shook and dried away any excess water after the soaking, and went ahead with planting them. I separated staples apart from each other and used that to attach the vines and mosses until they take hold. The mosses have sphagnum moss behind them for added moisture retention. The bromeliads are double-wired into place with sphagnum moss around the base of the plant. This was after the initial planting, but I did adjust it a small amount. I drained down Gandr’s temporary setup by 75%. I took out the heater and filter, knowing I’d be able to move this enclosure into place and get it set up pretty quickly. I had to move Gandr’s setup to a table tray, which was a little scary for him. But he got to watch me struggle to pick up and move this big thing into place behind the couch to where his old setup was sitting, which he seemed thoroughly entertained by. I swapped the lighting afterwards to my old 48” Finnex light I had leftover from one of my old 50 gallon tanks years ago. I slid this into place, and it sits on both this setup and my empty 20 gallon high aquarium next to it. I plan on programming it eventually, and dropping the 24/7 mode when I decide to someday work on the 20 gallon high. I added the heater, and strung the cord inside the above portion where the light is, wired it into place so it didn’t obstruct the view, and pulled the cord out of the slot the light fixture fits into. I then filled up and dechlorinated the underwater portion of the enclosure, and I scooped out any excess substrate floating around. A little does fall from time to time in places I missed fully vacuuming in. But, it’s barely any and only happened once so far. I turned both the heater and the filter on, though I already temperature matched the water precious to this, and added a bottle of beneficial bacteria. I also added giant duckweed, though I don’t think it will hold up with the current, but it seems to have found the low flow spots, and seems to be pretty good. When all was set, I added him in. He didn’t appreciate being picked up very much, but was pretty calm about it. I placed him into the water slowly, and let him go when he was ready. The filter caught him off guard, and he was very dramatic about it, thrashing around and worrying me. But less than a minute later, he was perfectly fine and casually walking around and exploring, even in the areas with more current. Haha, what a drama Queen. There are two hidden caves behind the rocks sticking out on the left side, the furthest one to the left has a large cave I can easily fit my hand into and still have room, while the other is more tight fitting, in case he prefers that more. He chose the largest cave, and has been there often, but he’ll come out from time to time to explore. It was around 4am when the enclosure was finished, hence the lighting. I went to sleep and woke up a few hours later to find Gandr decided that walking across the carpet, going into the hallway and getting covered in lint, and trying to walk into my mom’s room was much cooler than this setup. I approached him, and he was completely fine, walking around and still trying to explore, even when he saw me. I picked him up gently, cleaned him off, and placed him back. He has been a little escape artist twice before, but I didn’t imagine he would do it only a few hours after placing him in the setup. So I will have to work on a temporary barrier or some type of screen tonight so I can sleep without him going on a wild journey. He still hasn’t figured out he has a land portion yet, but he’ll get there. This was the setup in the early afternoon: And this was a few hours after, with a light watering and a misting: I also photographed a bromeliad I thought looked really cool, when it was misted.
    7 points
  36. Enjoyed a visit to the North Carolina Aquarium at Pine Knoll Shores today. We've gone here a lot of times in years past. The tour begins with freshwater, features a lovely outdoor trail along an intracoastal bird sanctuary, and winds through brackish, reef, and ocean exhibits. Didn't bother to photograph everything, but hopefully there's something to enjoy here. The theme is sort of fish (and various wildlife) in "North Carolina from the north Western mountain streams all the way down to the coastal shore."
    7 points
  37. anyone else feel free to take and run with this
    7 points
  38. My husband has really come around to see the light on this hobby! At first he was very opposed to me getting fish (we have four cats and three dogs). Three tanks later, he loves my fish just as much as I do and also didn't realize how much personality a fish could have! He picked up a 75 gallon for me and then built the tank stand to match the buffet we have in our dining room. The doors are still drying but they will be hung later today. I am so excited! I have been seeding another canister filter in tandem with my cycled 29 gallon. I need to get a lid, a heater, an air pump, and some plants. Once that's all done, my plan is for an oddball tank with maybe rope fish, elephant nose fish, farlowella catfish, haven't really decided (though my heart is set on rope fish, I am having a hard time finding a source for rope fish right now). I know you guys understand my excitement!
    6 points
  39. Pardon my 40 breeder algae farm. It is slowly coming under control. It actually will look cool once the log is cleaned up... Hard to photograph in this state, but the ugly duckling stage is a thing.
    6 points
  40. When you run out of Reactions for the Day:
    6 points
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